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Coal stove damper requirements ?

Post in 'Classic Wood Stove Forums (prior to approx. 1993)' started by coalcracker, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest



    if you are burning wood you can use a damper in the flue pipe, the exhaust smoke is not as deadly as coal, and you may slow down/extract a little more heat from the fire

    if you are burning coal, I'd recommend NOT using a damper. My own experience with dampers and coal stoves is, the exhaust flow of a coal stove, is CO and DEADLY, not something you want to restrict in any way, and risk backing into the house and living quarters, where you are sleeping, etc.

    I have no damper in my stove, a new high eff. sealed Harman w/firebricks and fan, and a double wall stainless liner flue pipe chimney that is over 20' tall and exit through a vaulted ceiling. During some weather conditions, even this setup tries to back up into the house some fumes, and the stove and chimney were professionally installed by a team of 5 techs and cost $2600. There was no damper in the previous stove the prior homeowner had installed. I've been burning coal since the 1960's and would recommend not using a flue pipe damper with coal. We live in northeast Pa. the source of the largest anthracite coal reserves in the world, and were once the Saudi Arabia of coal energy for the entire world, prior to the advent of oil.

    having a flue pipe damper in there that accidentally is closed or left closed when the barometric pressures change, could be hazardous

    coal gases are something you want OUT of your house asap and the little bit of heat you may lose without a damper is nothing to worry about. In the old days coal stoves were not airtight and had no rope gaskets around the doors, so they would vent draft into the fire even if the draft controls were all closed. In this case they used a flue pipe damper as a final throttle on the stove and ran it using that, if the draft vents were all closed and flue pipe damper also closed, that was the lowest setting on the stove

    I would not recommend that today with a sealed airtight stove with door gaskets.

    one time our chimney cap rusted and fell down and blocked the outlet and we all woke up with headaches and feeling a bit funny- CO is nothing to mess around with or block or impede the flow of, in any way

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  2. coaly

    coaly Fisher Moderator Staff Member

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    Welcome to the Forum coalcracker; (moved from the Fisher Forum)
    The Papa Bear is a wood stove only. The question was "can he use a smoke shelf baffle" as designed for the Fisher double door stoves that was not factory equipped in the single door stoves with his chimney set up. The answer is, he certainly can and should. The Papa Bear did not require a damper when designed, but insulated chimneys didn't exist then, so the damper was not required or mentioned in the manual. With the advent of better chimneys, it becomes necessary.

    The keyword for a safe damper, and one that should be used on all coal stoves is barometric. They are required by most manufacturers to keep the draft constant and precisely controlled. They are adjustable, and set to the stove mfg. suggested water column pressure. (vacuum) This keeps the proper air flow through the firebed.
    You are correct, not to use a manual damper, since as the fire dies, or looses draft, it can't open itself. The antique dampers had a larger hole in the center for a metered flow when closed. Replacing the damper on an antique stove with a newer style damper will close it off too much as well. A barometric damper doesn't close off the flue. It opens the air inlet (flap) when the draft is too strong (through the fire bed) allowing indoor air to cool the flue, reducing draft. Opening outside doors, wind and barometric changes affect it keeping the draft correct. Mechanical exhaust fans like dryers, central vacs, bath and kitchen fans can overpower the draft causing CO to enter as well, hence a CO detector should be used. (with natural gas and propane as well)

    Your'e lucky you woke up at all with the chimney cap falling into the flue. That's why a CO detector should be in the room with every coal stove, period.

    Not to hijack the OP thread, I'm in the anthracite coal belt and have used it many years as well. (Surdiac, Gibralter, and Hitzer. All with barometric damper) Do you feel the same I do about Blaschak coal if you've ever used it? Seems to leave more ash, less BTU, and be more corrosive than Old Company Lehi. ? I've used both in testing firebox designs. (converting wood cook stoves, and antique machinery to coal) I always have problems with Blaschak during summer testing and steam engines with no blowers. Some (dealers) swear by it.
  3. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest

    I have (2) CO detectors, with digital readout, that tell PPM of CO present at all times, one in each bedroom, right next to the bed, plugged into 120 VAC all outlets. They also have 9v DC batteries, so if the power goes out, they wil be active on the reserve battery power. In addition, I have (1) battery operated CO detector on the mantle above the stove, with (4) rechargeable NICAD AA batteries in it.

    none of them went off when the chimney hat fell down over the chimney.

    the dirty little secret about CO DETECTORS is, they only would go off if you were on the verge of death, I mean a really serious high concentration.

    both digital detectors routinely read 5ppm to 12ppm or higher, when running the stove at normal low fired conditions during winter, WITH NO FLUE PIPE DAMPER at all. That's because eventually any chimney will experience a slight downdraft and vent into the home, and no airtight stove is 100% airtight. This is with a high 22' chimney. The stove cost $1250, the chimney $1350, and it's double pipe lined with the interior stainless.

    imagine if I had a flue pipe damper and closed it, what the CO readings would be. They'd inadvertantly have to be HIGHER- because the damper holds back the gases.

    what most people don't want to admit, if you burn coal, you have a tiny bit of CO in your house, there's no way around it. Just open the door to rake it down, and add coal to the fire, in comes the CO.

    this is with a modern airtight stove. Keep in mind CO gases are exhausted from your chimney, and come down around the ground level of your house, and get pulled back in by tiny drafts, into your basement, and living space. Unless you have a 50' chimney, not feasible.

    The problem with a barometric damper is, it opens to room pressure and pulls air heated air from the room, if the chimney updraft becomes excessive on a windy night. Sure, it controls the stove draft- but it also sucks the heated air out of the rooms, right up the chimney.

    A manual damper and a barometric damper are 2 very different things, and I'd not recommend a barometric damper on ANY wood stove or coal stove.

    The problem with using a barometric damper on a wood stove is, if you do get creosote buildup in the chimney, and get a chimney fire, the barometric damper will respond to the strong updraft by closing completely and opening the chimney to room air, giving the chimney fire full fresh air to continue burning- effectively turning your chimney into a turbojet. And burning your house down.

    The manual damper is simple and easier to control, but if you have a 6" flue pipe and you run your stove with it closed, then why have a 6" flue pipe to begin with. It's effectively closing it down to a 2" flue pipe size.

    These types of dampers were required back when stoves were not airtight, the manual damper was invented in around 1810.

    Todays' stoves are airtight with rope seals on the draft and ash doors. You can close them down completely and totally cut off the intake air. If I run my Harman any tighter than 3/8 a turn from full closed, the coal fire simply goes out.

    With that precise a control on the fire door and/or ash door draft, the flue pipe damper is really ineffective.

    If a stove has a runaway condition with excessive updraft, the pipe damper may help- but I have yet to see a single stove in my lifetime, where the stove had too much draft. All the problem stoves I've encountered that did not heat well, suffered from not enough draft. Those pipe dampers cost some money, the best manual double thickness type is around $80, and the cheap ones are $30-$50. A barometric is even more.

    It's just another expense for something not needed.

    Those dampers also get creosote coated on a wood stove, and that closes the opening remaining.

    I've been heating my existing home for nearly 20 years with 2 different coal stoves without dampers, and my stove will hold a coal fire for 36 hours once fully loaded. It's the smallest Harman stove made at the time I bought it. It would gain nothing from a damper, and when I bought it, the installer told me not to put a damper on it. If memory serves the instruction manual also said do not use a damper.

    The better coal and wood stoves now, circulate the smoke in a circuit around the inside of the stove, to extract the maximum heat from it. They are internally baffled and also have fixed tiny fixed fire door vents above/below the glass, that allow over-top fire air to combust any byproduct gases such as methane from coal. There's a lot of technology and engineering into a modern stove, to the point they no longer need the stove pipe damper.

    Tests done by users of the stove pipe dampers with thermometers, will show a the same or slightly higher stove temperature with the damper closed, with a cooler chimney temperature- compared to when the damper is open.

    A cool chimney temperature is something you do NOT want with a wood stove, it creates more creosote. The worst thing you can do for creosote buildup, is bank up your woodstove with logs, then close the chimney damper and retire for the night. It's helping plug up the chimney with creosote.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2013
  4. coaly

    coaly Fisher Moderator Staff Member

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    Argeed to not use the baro on a wood stove installation due to air supply during a chimney fire. Coal and oil, most manufacturers recommend.

    I think it's time to calibrate your draft gauge. My manometer shows many chimneys with overdraft. (over .06 W.C.) Harman recommends testing draft above the barometric damper for chimney draft and below the barometric damper to test draft through fire bed. The manual for Mark I, II ,and III suggests this type measurement as well. Not sure what model you have. Dane may want to chime in if he sees your post. He is the original builder of Harman here in PA. (and his last name) After selling out a few years ago, he still works for the company producing the stoves.

    You're correct about the baro damper wasting indoor heated air. Unfortunately it's currently the only way known to cool the flue controlling draft automatically. It took me a long time to realize the amount of coal used to heat the air that escapes up the chimney is far less than the coal used in an overfire condition. My current coal stove is a hopper fed Hitzer with thermostat and a manual slider for "low burn" when the thermostat door is closed not calling for heat. The damper flap opens slightly on the low burn, but opens fully when the thermostat opens to try to slow the draft. This shows how much waste during themostat operation, so we try to keep that thermostat door closed and keep the house warm on low burn. If I were to hold the flapper shut like there was no damper in the system, the extreme draft through the fire overheats the stack big time. So it's definately needed in my Dura-vent metal insulated chimney. Normal flue temp above the damper is 150 to 200. This was the ONLY heat source in the home of 1880 square feet. Never used over two tons of chestnut a season. And we dress in summer clothes year round. The stove is still connected and ready, but we now have enough acreage to supply wood to a Kitchen Queen wood stove that does all our cooking, baking, hot water and heating. I do miss the clean chimney and ease of feeding and maintaining the fire. Our coal stove was lit around early November and kept going until no longer needed in the spring. Never lost a fire or had problems. But coal is now over 200 / ton here, picked up in bulk at the dealer.
  5. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest



    sorry I've been away from the thread for a while, my apologies, I thought you were discussing a flue pipe damper. Yes definitely any stove should have an internal BAFFLE plate or shelf, to slow down the exhaust stream and give it a circuitous route inside the stove, to extract more heat. What I've found is a Harman I stove has such a generous baffle with only a narrow opening exposed to the fire, that a flue pipe damper isn't needed. Basically the Harman I is internally fixed dampened with the baffle, so it performs 2 functions. Turning the front draft control only 1/4 turn either way, will give immediate flame adjustment over a coal stove, making the flames go higher or lower, that's how precise it is- and if the draft is closed more than 3/8 turn from full closed position, the coal fire will go out. If one can get that measure of adjustment from the front draft, there's no need for a flue pipe damper, i.e. the draft control and internal baffle acting together can slow the draft down to the point there's no fire. Adding a flue pipe damper at that point would be of no gain, because closing the flue pipe damper, would then require OPENING the front draft control beyond the usual adjustment point, to keep the fire going, the end result being the same burning rate anyway.

    If you look closely at the old stoves with built in flue pipe damper outlet assemblies, I've noticed that the ones with built in flue pipe damper assemblies, usually had no baffle in the stove itself. So the damper was just acting as a baffle and aux. draft control, further up the flue pipe circuit.

    On the issue of specific coal used, I burned Jeddo, Hazleton Shaft, and Coal Contractor coal for 20 years, all strip mined within 2 or 3 miles of each other. Actually the latter 2 are across the street from each other. But this year, Jeddo shut down and is only selling old stockpiles, Hazleton Shaft was down to working only 2 days a week and didn't have nut coal, and Coal Contractors was the only one still up and running. The Obama Admin. has viciously attacked the coal industry here, because it competes with the oil and gas companies, who have funded Obama's past 2 campaigns. These oil and gas companies are also FOREIGN OWNED, by people such as British and Dutch royalty (BP and Dutch Royal Shell) and the Rothschilds banking dynasty, along with domestic owners such as the Rockefellers. Competition is a sin to them so they try to put coal out of business.
  6. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest



    excellent information. Yes I always wanted to check the draft with a gauge, having repaired electronics, cars, firearms for decades, it's apparent the proof is in the measuring. "Good draft" or "strong draft" or "no draft" are all relative, subjective terms- exactly how strong is it ? The only way to compare is measure it. Oddly enough most of the stove dealers and installers here, don't have a draft gauge ! They install the stove and chimney, and away they go. Perhaps because they use a rule of thumb, if the pipe is large enough diameter and high enough, it will draft. My current chimney is about 21'-22' tall. It has way more draft when the knob is opened up, than I'll ever need to burn anything. It's a Harman I. The draft knob turns 6.5 turns closed to full open, and I never had to open it more than 3/4 turn from closed for a constant, steady burn. Actual adjustment is 3/8 turn open from full closed for "low", and 3/4 turn open from full closed for "max high". Beyond that would be an overfire condition. But it still has excellent precise fire control, as closed tighter than 3/8" turn from full closed, will cause the coal fire to go out.

    If I closed it all the way and it still burned, then I'd be putting in some sort of flue pipe damper or baro damper.

    I too only turn about 2 tons of coal a year to heat my home. On another forum there's a lively debate about a coal stove requiring 5 to 8 tons a year, to heat an average 2000 square foot home. Both you and I can concur, an efficient stove would only burn half of that or less. The key is efficiency. Not only do I wear short sleeve T-shirts in winter in my house, if it gets above 40 degrees outside, I'm opening windows to let heat out. 2 years ago I heated with only ONE TON of coal because it was a mild winter, and the coal came from Hazleton Shaft and had a VERY HIGH BTU content, I was able to turn the draft down to minimum 3/8 turn open and it heated like the other coal did at 1/2 or more open. It just threw off more heat yet burned slower.

    Heating with a hand fired unit is more of a lost art or black art, than simply home heating. Well worth it, because the cost savings are great. Let me just say this- alternative heating with wood and coal in Pa., is an IQ test, if one is not not doing it, they flunked ! When I hear of friends and families spending more on one month's heating bill with gas or oil or propane, than I spend all year, I just wonder why they don't wise up. I had a family member who was spending $1000/month for January, for oil heat, when that would heat my home for 2.5 years with coal. Now they switched to natural gas and still spend $450 on the coldest month, also doing their hot water.
  7. Bootstrap

    Bootstrap New Member

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    Some stoves require a manual pipe damper, some require a baro damper, some dont require either. My Hitzer 30-95 does not require a damper. My Harman mark 1 didnt either. My 1980's Warm morning 523 required a pipe damper either manual or baro. When it comes to what you do and do not need for any stove, look at what the MANUAL SAYS.
    If I didnt have a manual pipe damper in my warm morning stove, I probably would've over fired it or burnt the load up quickly. The argument of coal gasses being more harmful is mute. Wood stove emissions are equally as dangerous and are not "ok" to breathe.
    If your stove needs a damper, it will take a learning curve to figure out just how much you need to close it up. If you have a properly installed chimney with good draft, you will not backup into the house.

    Check the manual of your stove.
  8. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest

    Wood gases are not as dangerous as coal gases. I've fired 9 different stoves, in 4 different homes, over the period of the past 4 decades. Occasionally in this area, people are taken from their homes due to CO gas asphyxiation, it will be in the news- it's always for coal fires, not wood fires. The dangers of wood fires are chimney fire due to creosote buildup. I'm speaking of the practical dangers and what really happens, not speculation.

    Insisting on using a manual is not practical, because there are more OLD STOVES out there made before 1950, than I can count, and the manuals are long gone, so are the companies that make them- and many stoves didn't specify if they need a flue pipe damper or not. I have a manual from an old stoker boiler and it says nothing about flue pope or barometric damper at all.

    You are assuming everyone buys a modern stove with a manual, once the stove hits the used market, or someone is using a vintage stove, and there are many restoring them- there is no manual.

    Then it's trial and error and common sense and some technical know how.

    You are correct my Harman I stated right in the manual when I first bought it, a flue pipe damper was not needed.

    But let's peel that onion and ask why- because the Harman I is INTERNALLY BAFFLED and said baffle, also acts as a DAMPER. It doesn't matter where the choke is in the exhaust stream, it can be in the pipe, or in the stove welded in and nonadjustable. It's the same principle.

    So the reason your new stoves don't need a damper, is because it's built in, by design.

    I want to know more than just what's in the manual. I restored many old cars body off frame, and there's no manual for that. The car owners manual tells you how to start and drive it, and turn the lights on.

    A chimp can read and do that. I prefer a more technical approach. Not only how to operate the mechanism, but how it works internally, and why. Otherwise when it breaks, the only solution is buy a new one- rather than knowing how it works, and being able to modify, repair, improve it.

    You could install a baffle in your Warm Morning stove, and not need a flue pipe damper at all.
  9. Bootstrap

    Bootstrap New Member

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    If you are going out and buying a stove made in the 50's, odds are you are not a novice in the burning arena, there are exceptions. Woodstove emissions are harmful. Most of the time, you notice the harmful emissions long before it becomes dangerous. Coal stove emissions are harder to smell compared to wood stove emissions. I have been burning both wood and coal. My coal stove setup never backs up into the house.
    Manuals for stoves are out there. The manual for a stove is what you should pay attention to if your a novice. I am pretty sure the people who designed the stove have a better say on what it needs for proper operation.
    Said manual will not only tell you what kind of external damper is recommended, but it will also go over proper chimney requirements. This is not information people are born with. Failure to adhere to both requirements will equate to a stove that doesnt function properly.
    I was able to search the internet for a manual for my warm morning stove thats 30 years old, not modern what so ever.
    If he had the knowledge to re-engineer the setup, then he might not be asking questions here....
    till then, the first thing I would recommend is digging up paperwork, and following it.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  10. coaly

    coaly Fisher Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, it's the same principal as controlling draft with an internal baffle but the baffle would need to be set for the chimney, and move constantly to keep the draft at a constant.

    Since each stove is built the same, the variable is the chimney and weather conditions.

    The benefit of a barometric damper is that it adjusts itself for the atmospheric conditions (low or high pressure and temperature) and fire condition. It maintains the strength of the chimney draft to the setting shown on adjustable scale. If you don't have a draft gauge, you should make sure the barometric damper is installed plumb and level. This affects the accuracy. Then it's safe to assume the draft is close to the setting chosen. Setting the draft control on the barometric damper to the setting suggested by manufacturer insures the proper oxygen through fire and is constantly adjusting itself to remain constant.
    If draft requirement is not known, setting the damper adjustment at a given intake air setting will adjust burn rate to what you want at that air setting. If the damper adjustment is changed, it takes time for the fire, stove temperature, and flue temperature to respond.
  11. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest


    many people are going out and buying stoves a lot older than that, there is a cottage industry that has sprung up in the northeast and New England, restoring old stoves, and heating with them. When designed these old stoves were cutting edge technology and the build quality is top notch, more often than not they are built better than a new stove. With over 100 years of technological advances back then, they got it right. Instead of paying $2000 for a new Harman Mk I, an older stove is a great alternative. Why ? Recently I received a potbelly Washington coal stove, and a Lehigh Oak 18, for free. Both needed new firebrick which I installed myself. At an estate sale I found another Sears Roebuck 1940's ? vintage parlor stove, price $25. As you can see the savings on a free or $25 stove, means you can heat your home for about 5 years on the cost savings of a new stove.

    http://stovehospital.com/

    You will be hard pressed to find an owners manual for a Washington potbelly coal stove, or a Lehigh Oak 18. They were made before WWII. I believe the Lehigh was made in the 1920's. There are endeavors in life for which there are no manuals. Personally I prefer to break new ground and experiment and learn, rather than just buy. It keeps it more interesting. If money is no object, then why not just pay for gas baseboard or electric and be done with it.

    Often times asking online in a forum, will get quicker replies and information, than trying to find a manual. Of course a manual never hurts, but burning wood and coal isn't rocket science. There's nothing mysterious about getting a coal fire going in a stove, people were doing it in the 1800's when the average person didn't have an 8th grade education. There is a galaxy of home-made coal and wood stoves out there now with plans, and even home made waste oil burners converted from coal and wood stoves.

    I'm sorry to say, I reject the premise you need an owners manual to set up a coal or wood stove and fire it, or modify, improve, service, repair it. The only stove I ever had a manual for, was my new Harman I. All the other stoves I've fired, the manuals were long gone. One stoker furnace had a 2 page direction sheet wired to the furnace- but that would do little for a novice trying to fire that unit. There's a learning curve tied to the chimney draft and location and fuel, put the same stove in 10 different homes, with regional coal fuel variations, none of them will all fire exactly the same. A novice will have the fire go out overnight a few times, and perhaps slightly overfire it a few times as well. Where the common sense comes in, is how one responds.

    The fun is in fixing the old ones up, modifying them, and getting them going again.

    Check this link called the Stove Hospital. Now this fella has been restoring stoves for 30 years. If he had to put aside every one without a manual, he'd not have the business at all. He brings them home by the truckload 6 at a time. Read the webpage, you'll realize 1950's is NEW for a coal stove, because by that time oil had taken over most of the market, and they were making fewer coal stoves. The heyday of the coal stove was 1850-1950 era. Once oil arrived at 10 cents/gallon during the 1950's, a family could heat for $30/month with oil. Coal became obsolete. But those days too are gone, so the heating industry is in the midst of a retrofit to coal, of which there is an abundant domestic supply.

    http://stovehospital.com/

    The same applies to antique guns, stereos, phonographs, automobiles, cameras. All it takes is a basic understanding of how the machine works, and anyone with some mechanical aptitude and common sense can take it from there.

    Having said all this, getting by on topic, IMHO an inner baffle is a must have. With a good baffle inside the stove, there's little or no need for a flue pipe damper. The real test of a coal stove is, how far can it be turned down on draft, and still hold a fire and not go out. Any stove will burn with the draft wide open, or the ash door open. So will an open fire in a campsite, no biggie there. The "better" stoves offer a high degree of control and response to even the slightest draft adjustment, and get a lot of mileage out of the fuel, be it wood or coal.

    On the subject of flue pipe dampers or baro dampers, IMHO the idea of blocking the flow of CO gases after they leave the stove itself, is something that needs to be done very carefully, and prefeably not at all. I'd rather lose a few more % efficiency up the chimney, than impede the flow of CO gases. You may have not had your stoves back up into your house- but the key word there is "yet". My Mom has the baro damper on her oil burner stick shut and filled the basement with oil fumes. It's the only time it happened over the 40 year life of the furnace, but it does happen. No heating system is 100% defect free- just look at all the homes that burn down every winter, from malfunctioning gas and oil furnaces- and these are modern furnaces.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2013
  12. Bootstrap

    Bootstrap New Member

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    Thats a really long post.
    coaly likes this.
  13. coalcracker

    coalcracker Guest

    that topic required a thorough reply, it's a matter of philosophy, there's a lot to it. Anyone can say "yes" or "no". It takes some time to explain "why".

    the short reply is:

    The Yugo and Vega cars had owners manuals too. That didn't make them good cars. Reading them would not fix the problems, and the manual didn't tell you, the cars were lemons. If you're going to own and use these man-made inventions, best find out how they work, so you can tell the difference between a good and bad design. Otherwise, after you're done reading the manual, the technician or salesman is going to make you pay dearly to fix or replace it.
  14. Shwammy

    Shwammy Member

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    I hear ya coal, I'm in the process of restoring a Sierra 200 side loading stove, adding a better baffle and such to it. Plenty of room as it has a front window frame that is easily removable. I'd like to take it all the way to secondary air and an air wash on the glass. I keep trying to focus on being the flue and ow it interacts with the side draft. i almost feel like the air wash and secondary air would simplify things as bit. I know this is an old thread but to whoever does read it, I am trying.

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