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"Comment Prints" - Solo 40 PSI Storage System

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by jjhpf, Dec 12, 2009.

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  1. jjhpf

    jjhpf New Member

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    Loc:
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    Life is good...Solo 40 that didn't sell is set less controls, two 500 gal tanks from "Leaddog" on trailer front of garage
    System prints posted for comments - "Boiler Room" and several of you are reading this posting
    System in 12' x 24' boiler room, ground level behind garage, attached to two stories above - 2700 sq ft
    After reviewing Simplest Pressurized Storage Sys and Cozy Heat design (thanks - nofossil & Dave) plus reading and learning off posting - I'm ready to get my design stamped "Ready For Construction"

    1 - Tarm print calls for Aquestate Honeywell L4006B and looks like it is in/on flow line, is this sweated into system?

    2 - H2O source = 1/2" copper, shut off valve, pressure temp gage, Extrol 60# expansion tank, Discal 551 air seperator

    3 - Over heat loop = 1" copper, power fail zone valve, 40' 3/4" copper fin over heat loop in garage behind boiler room, shut off ball valve on return line. Power fail zone valve set up on elc on/off switch for heating options in garage, Molly likes her car warm in the am

    4 - By pass loop = standard Tarm set up 1 1/4" flow and return stove taps to black pipe unions to sweated shut off ball valves, balance valve (not shown), TV-1 (stamped 72 deg?), Groundfos 3-speed pump.

    5 - In floor heat = 1 1/14" copper, Groundfos 3-speed pump, Caleffi 6637F5A brass manifold 6 outlet. System to run 24-7 Oct-Apr "Comment Prints" show 1" but Caleffi is 1 1/4". Plan to only plumb for future system up to two shut off valves just above wood boiler 1 1/4" flow line. Parts bought so far = two rolls of 1/2" Pex. Anyone with thoughts please? Should system be moved to Gas boiler area? Thoughts are that it run compleatly seperate. Caleffi has 1 1/4" manifolds x 3/4" outlets - I'v got 1/2" Pex? Install temper valve?

    6 - Filter/separator = if installed best location? Looking at Caleffi 5462

    7 - Storage = two 500 gal propane tanks stacked working with 83" floor-ceiling, bottom tank to sit on 1" hard wood and welded in bracing (steel legs removed), two 12" pipe pups connecting tanks, additional welded in support, charging and withdrawing through 1 1/4" internal tank stand off pipes to 90 deg elbows to T's then 1 1/4" copper. Off top tank is relief valve, Extrol SX-60V = 32 gal volume (correct sixe ? using 3%=30 gal) considered top floor and set home made 30 gal tank vented - ??
    Tanks under master bedroom - are there any noise issues during charging/discharging?

    8 - Gas boiler = Burnham 7-22, series 2, 125,000 BTU/Hr Input-180,000 & Output 144,000 BTU's/Hr 35 years old. "Comment Prints" show 2" lines on boiler but they are 1 1/2" - copper with six 3/4" zones, no zone valves tho. Thermostat calls for heat, burner ignites and pump comes on. All 6 zones are balanced manually with each 3/4" ball valves. Any one know how long this boiler will last? I'm thinking 2-3 years max - then tankless with new 3/4" zone valves - empty nest.

    9 - Wood to Gas hook up = Options to tie in Wood 1 1/4" into 1 1/2" Gas - on top of zones or below? On top is easy, just sweat in 1 1/4" reducer on top of each 1 1/2" stack, hot to hot, return to return and switch directions of pump (is switching pump directions possible?) If I have to get below 3/4" zones on 1 1/2" stacks it will require removing both 2" black pipe flow and return 90 deg elbows from boiler and install T's - concerned with removing 90 Deg elbows 35yr old boiler?? Is the single speed Groundfos pump on Gas boiler enough? - 23' of 1 1/4" run length distance from storage tank pick up to gas boiler

    10 - Design of elc control system is beyond me - anything need sweated in? please enough help that a plumber friend and I can follow

    11 - Don't understand how/if the single 1 1/4" flow line is enough to supply in floor and charge tanks/heat home. Solo 40 has two flow and return taps - should I be using second tap for anything - say separate lines to charge storage tank?

    thanks - jim

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  2. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

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    That diagram is super tough to read. Can you make it darker and re-attach?

    Here are some of my thoughts though:

    1.) Usually the aquastat will be strap-on (very unscientific and easy).

    3.) Does your overheat loop require manual intervention to operate? It shouldn't.

    7.) Tanks should be 100% quiet. Personally, I have two 66 gallon acceptance tanks on my system. More is better than being "on the bubble"...
  3. jjhpf

    jjhpf New Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    Thanks for comments
    Sorry about the quality of diagram - trying to improve and re-post

    1 - Aquastat, it looked like Tarm left off a couple of pieces
    3 - Overheat loop, no manual intervention - power to come from elec switch - when switch is on zone valve stays closed unless power fails, turning switch off will create "power fail" - thoughts?
    7 - Glad to hear system is quiet - never heard of acceptance tanks
  4. sdrobertson

    sdrobertson Minister of Fire

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    Acceptance tanks would be another way to say expansion tanks. Once all the air is removed from the system you shouldn't be able to hear anything in the tanks.
  5. jebatty

    jebatty Minister of Fire

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    You should see if you can get a copy of the manual from BioHeat. Lots of info on setup, plumbing, controls, etc.
    1) The Honeywell L4006B is the overheat aquastat, and is a well-type. There is a well in the top of the boiler for the bulb sensor.
    2) 1-1/4 lines are good for about 14 gpm, which at delta-T of 20 = 140,000 btuh, which is the rating of the Solo 40. Unless very long lines and pump head issues, I see no reason to go any larger.
    3) I would figure expansion acceptance volume = about 4% of total system water. Size the expansion tank accordingly.
    4) I have my filter installed in a return line so any crud it catches stays out of the circulator.
    5) Size your circulator based on pump head and flow requirements to deliver needed btu's. Ideally you want to pick a circulator that meets your flow requirement at the system head in about the middle of the pump curve chart for the circulator.
    6) You have two supply and two return tappings on the back. I used the upper supply for my pressure relief valve, and the lower supply for my supply to system. I used the left return tapping on the bottom for system return and the very bottom return on the right as a boiler drain (along with the boiler drain on the front). I didn't need to use these for anything else, but you may find a better arrangement for your system.
  6. sgschwend

    sgschwend New Member

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    So your gas system is separate from the boiler?

    I would have more than one air separator, such as the one on the storage, but also at some point at the load return and load supply. They don't have to be big just something to take a few air bubbles out.

    I like looking at the return pressure and temperature, a gage on the main return pipe is handy.

    Also there should be an isolation valve on each node of the load's output manifold, and a line from the suction manifold to drain. I would recommend locating the load circulator pump next to the suction manifold. The load's circulator pump should have its own line cord then you can plug it into an extension cord to run the pump as needed during the installation. All of this stuff will make it easy to bleed the air out of your loops.

    I would include an adjustable pressure regulator given you are going to have the water supply plumbed in through that valve (upper left). Makes it a lot harder to over pressurize the system.
  7. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I would recommend tying the gas and wood systems together in parallel so that you only have one heat distribution setup that can be fed by either heat source - why go through the expense and hassles of having duplicate distribution setups...

    I noticed you putting the overheat loop in the garage - is there ANY possibility of freezing temps there?? If so this is a BAD idea! If you want a garage heat setup, I'd put in a water - water HX and a glycol loop in the garage, while keeping the overheat loop in the boiler space...

    Gooserider
  8. jjhpf

    jjhpf New Member

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    sdrobertson
    Thanks - "acceptance tanks" 53 but still very teachable
    2000 gal storage! = I'll start working on 150 mile right of way purchases for tie line

    jebatty
    1 - Honeywell L4006B aquastat = I have the aquastat but think I'm missing the well
    7 - Expansion acceptance volume = Boiler will have Extrol 60#, Storage of 1000 gal 4% rather than 3% and Gas has its own tank - should be good to go
    6 - Filter = To go in return line
    5 - In floor heat = Location of system OK? For pump I'll use Groundfos 3-speed - using this pump everywhere else, options to pull if another fails
    11 - Two supply/return lines - shouldn't need second set unless I try to heat the 2 acre pond

    sgschwend
    "So your gas system is separate from the boiler?" = Not sure what your asking here - wood/storage to heat house with gas available (cheapes option) is my plan

    Return PSI and Temp gage = I like the idea, thanks

    "Also there should be an isolation valve on each node of the load’s output manifold, and a line from the suction manifold to drain. I would recommend locating the load circulator pump next to the suction manifold. The load’s circulator pump should have its own line cord then you can plug it into an extension cord to run the pump as needed during the installation. All of this stuff will make it easy to bleed the air out of your loops." = most of this is greek to me. I believe your talking about wood - gas connections.

    My first question is 1) - will it work if I bring the 1 1/4" supply from wood to top of 1 1/2" (above 3/4" zones) supply on gas and pull gas pump rotate 180 deg and reinstall and match return gas to return wood - this will be very easy! 2) - if I bring wood supply to gas return and leave gas pump alone and connect gas suppluy to wood return - would it work? What happens when/if wood/storage is cold/off and gas comes on? Sort of think the gas will try to heat more than house.?
    2 - H2O source = adjustable pressure regulator on water supply = thanks, good idea - I may not be the only person to tend this monster

    Gooseruder
    "gas and wood systems together in parallel" = ?
    3 - Overheat loop = "possibility of freezing temps" in garage is slim, living space over garage - with no heat currently in garage on -0 deg days dog water dish will freeze over but not solid. I was planning putting in 20' of 3/4' copper fin on opposite side of block wall boiler room and garage off one of house return zones

    Keep the ideas coming - I can see I'm a long way from "approval"

    jim
  9. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Quick explanation of what I meant by hooking up the wood and fossil in parallel - the idea is one I've mentioned many times before, as I think its one of the best options unless there is a definite reason to do something else...

    Find a convenient spot on the supply and return sides of the existing fossil setup - break the lines and put a tee on the ends that go to the existing heat distribution network... Hook the fossil boiler to one leg of the tee, and the wood boiler (and storage tanks) to the other. Either put a circ with a flowcheck on each of the boiler loops, or put the circ on the distribution network, and a zone valve on each boiler loop. This way you have one distribution system that can be fed by either the wood boiler / storage setup or the fossil boiler, without feeding the unused heater... Setup the control strategy so that if the house calls for heat, it pulls from the wood side if it's hot, or fires up the fossil side if it isn't...

    I'd be nervous about a water loop in the garage if you are running that close to freezing temps - it would not take an awful lot to drop just enough to start cracking your lines, especially if using copper or steel... Just get a long colder than normal spell, or go on vacation and turn the house heat down and you are in trouble... (Or get a winter storm w/ multi-day power outage) Remember, slim =/= zero...

    Gooserider
  10. jebatty

    jebatty Minister of Fire

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    More on the flow and return fittings on the back of the Tarm Solo 40. The labels on mine show top left is flow, top right is to storage tank; bottom left is return, bottom right is storage return.
  11. jjhpf

    jjhpf New Member

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    Gooserirer
    "Find a convenient spot on the supply and return sides of the existing fossil setup - break the lines and put a tee on the ends that go to the existing heat distribution network... Hook the fossil boiler to one leg of the tee, and the wood boiler (and storage tanks) to the other. Either put a circ with a flowcheck on each of the boiler loops, or put the circ on the distribution network, and a zone valve on each boiler loop. This way you have one distribution system that can be fed by either the wood boiler / storage setup or the fossil boiler, without feeding the unused heater... Setup the control strategy so that if the house calls for heat, it pulls from the wood side if it's hot, or fires up the fossil side if it isn't..."

    Do I have it correct ?
    1 - Disconnect the gas boiler from the two 1 1/2" stacks (heat distribution network) each have six 3/4" zones, supply and return as orginally drawn
    2 - Move gas boiler a couple feet away from heat distribution network
    3 - Install T's on both distribution networks
    4 - Tie in wood and gas to both distribution networks
    5 - Install one zone valve on each 1 1/4" boiler return loop

    Overheat loop moved from garage to boiler room - thanks

    jim

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  12. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    That looks like it should work - the only possible issue I see as drawn is the distance between the circ and the expansion tank - seems like you are pushing rather hard on the "pumping away" rule, (If anything it looks more like "pumping towards") which can sometimes cause problems with cavitation on the pumps... Not sure offhand what the best fix would be...

    An alternative way to do it might be to put a pump with a flow-check where you have each zone valve, presumably you could use the pump on the distribution net right now for one of them. Since the cost of a pump and a zone valve is roughly the same, that would save the cost of a zone valve. Better yet might be to put the pumps on the supply side, as that would deal with the pumping away issue a little better...

    Gooserider
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