Complaint Harman and Dealers of

[CK-1]

Well the gentleman, Ken, whom Craig recommended was extremely helpful. He answered all my questions quickly & clearly. As I stated earlier I was sure there were some out there who cared to give good honest service. This man, who had no obligation to help, did so. Thank you Craig for the referral. Thanks to Ken for the help also. And thanks to those here who tried to be of assistance.
Stoveguy: when I get my camera here I will take a picture of the Direct Connect Base (DCB) and stove top to illustrate what I mean. I have decided that I am going to make a gasket of some sort to lay on top of the stove between the stove top and the DCB. It will not seal tightly as there is no way without modification to attach the DCB down tight to the stove top. However it will fill the voids and make it a little tighter.
It seems that although the PMI seems to feel that a liner or any "exhaust" pipe is optional. Ken and the predominance of those in the field feel a direct liner from stove to top of chimney is what should be done. I was trying to avoid this. Cost of 30' run of SS flex being a deterrent. As this is being done as a test. I am having a shorter length of the SS liner made up. I will connect it directly to the DCB. Place my gasket under the DCB. Run the SS liner approx. 6' up till it is 12" inside my first clay flue liner. Insulate around liner. Insulate at damper. Not sure if I should insulate around surround shroud or leave open completely. Different opinions on that.
As to the Topic of this thread. I hope Harman and dealers alike take heed of it. One should not have to be so tenacious in order to get some customer service.
Unfortunately too many consumers have been convinced that service ends either after the sale or at latest at the end of the warranty period. Well there is a lot of money to be made with Warranties, Extended warranties etc. More can be made from good customer service and the eventual growing of same company offering such. Ken and some others have shown a willingness to “go the extra mile”.

I installed a direct connect vs a full liner as well due to the cost. Next year or 2 I will install a full liner, but as for now the direct connect is working pretty good. Where I live, the fireplace shop isn't knowledgable as well. Before I purchased my stove, one sales rep. told me I could get a full liner or just shove the insert into the fireplace with no pipe. Like you, I wasn't installing a insert without a pipe connection. After hearing that dumb azz suggestion I did two things..

1. Registered here and have received alot of valuable info.
2. Purchased my stove from somewhere else..

 

[coldinnj]

Good points ELK, as always you are on top of the specs.
I was planning on using the fiber blanket for insulation.
The Chimney was designed for coal burning. One chimney, Masonry, outside, two flues (rectangular 7” x 12” ID each) separate all the way to the top by approx. 4”. Each brick with clay flue. Inspection has shown no voids between joints. Flues seem very solid (pass the crape test). Never was able to determine exact age of home but well over the hundred mark. Just cleaned chimney again. Inspected it and flues are in great shape. Removed and rebricked / mortar some around the top. Doing new cap system. Flues do not meet at the bottom. Chimney extends approx.5’ above closets object, part of roof, 10’ away.

Also you manual points out the importance of the suround seal

This is where I was weighing the advantages of leaving the surround off and allowing the extra pickup of heat from the back versus the detriments. What's your opinion? The fireplace has a nice design, not a Rumford but it sends the heat out rather well.

As to the 36" away from combustibles... The only problem is the mantle which is 29" hence I am going to install a heat shield for that.
I do not have on hand the chart for figuring the cross sectional area requirements. Can you state for me what the cross sectional requirement is for me please?

The stove itself is UL listed.
6’ liner is 316Ti flex

As the two flues are identicle and I have personally been burning coal on the one side for almost 14 years myself. And wood on the other side. I have not found any degedation of the flue liner on the coal side in all this time.
BTW there was a third chimney on the house for the coal cooking stove in the kitchen. I took it out with the hand pump water wells about 13 years ago.

 

[stovemanken]

CK-1:
I can see you didn't like the just set it in & burn it suggestion. I would still like to know why this is any different that burning wood or coal in an open grate? Anyone who has an open fireplace would be in grave danger if this is a problem.
Elk:
If coal stove smoke is so corrosive, what was going on for the 300 years when people used coal as their primary source of heat, either in a stove or furnace, venting into masonry chimneys made of brick or stone? Many old potbelly stoves used single wall steel pipe. That should have corroded out in a matter of weeks.

Just a few questions.

 

[elkimmeg]

Part of my post was acccomplished to get you thinking about your install ,to see it saftey threw The damper area per code has to be sealed off to do two things
prevent the intrusion of room air which draws heat out plus cools the flue. this in turn weakens draft and promotes all the nastiies I mentioned before.
The secon part of the block off especially true with direct connection is to prevent backdrafting of exhaust gasses into the living area.
I recomend a metal damper plate and adding cermanic insulation a bove it. Securely fastened and sealed the perimeter, can be sealed with Hight temp RTV caulk
but the pipe space has to have 1200 degree or better sealant gasket/ stove/ refractory cement or Fire stop sealant caulk 136. Thee 136 is ASTM E requirement of 1200 degreees
Boss makes one tested to 3000 degrees Dap version is tested to 2000 degrees and Home chepo sell a #m brand 136 draft stop sealant
It is one thing to mention it but another to identify it Heree is the problem with stuffing insulation of any kind Permanancy (Please ignore my bad spelling and typing)

Insulation does not exibit permancy it will droop from condensation in summer can get blown out by wind and without permancy or rigidity that is not a seal

by alos insulating strip around you suround you padd to the prevention of heat loss tyo the chimney and dilusion of air to cool the liner your manual suggest both a good damper block off ans sealed suround since heat on the outer edges of the suround is less of an issue ans the manufacture recomends fiberglass strips then by all means use the fiberglass insulation strips.

Ok the NAPA211 admended the Cross sectional code in 2003 to reflect location of chimneys Too much cresote formed in marginal exterior exposed chimneys due to weak drafts. That and modern stoves being more draft sensitive. The older code would allow venting into masonry chimneys up to 3x the cross sectional area. Translate that meant 8/12 was ok even inan exposed chimney. (Also in chapter 12 is code requiring a solid non combustiable block off plate for direct connections) 2003 the code changed still permissiable is the 3x the cross secctional are for internal chimneys only exposed above the roof line The Change was 2x the cross sectional area for exposed chimneys. this ruled out direct connection in all fireplaces that had clay flues 8/12
or larger for 6" flue collar5 a wood burning appliances unles the are tested and certified for being able to support the larger flue. In essence that required full liners in all chimneys using a 6" flue collar appliance and the fireplace flue..

Warning here just because your fire place drafted ok do not assume a 6" flue outlet in a stove will follow suit. That fireplace has a huge opening to draw from, not a couple id slits for its air feed.. Part of the dealers discourging Cat stoves, were issues with cross-sectional sizes. They sold stoves that never drafted correctly installed in exterior fireplace flue locations.
when the complaints arrived it was easier for them to discourage Cat stoves, than loose a sale and educcate the potential buyer. The non Cat stoves drafts were a bit more forgiving so push the product that requires less of a learning curb, discourage cat purchase and disss it, even drop that model from his inventory.

 

[coldinnj]

Interesting what you bring up about the cross sectional ratio and draft problems Elk:
As I mentioned both flues are identical. The other one that has been running a coal furnace for many, many years, not only runs 8' longer than this one but then has to go into 8" round pipe semi horizontal for another maybe 20' till it reaches the furnace.
Not a new furnace with blower but an old hand fed, manual draft control 150,000 BTU bad boy.
Never had a draft problem with that.
Also the stove does not have a 6" flue outlet. It is approx. 7" oval outlet. Not a large difference 7" x 3.14159265358384...

 

[elkimmeg]

Cold I read your manual and knew you were not correct with the 6" round but 7' oval .You are very close to the cross-sectional code. Again one can not apply the past to modern stoves and assumptions as to the workable drafts the 7" cross- sectional code applied to an 8/12 clay flue is marginal acceptance per code, flip a coin for that judgement. iI it the best solution no?

I do not come up with current code but interpet what is written 2003 and forward is the code. You may opperaate that stove finewith a direct connect. Code wise and experience does not allow review in the replay booth.

 

[coldinnj]

Thanks Elk. BTW I don't know who started the 6" round idea. I always knew it wasn't that. Well I'm gonna go for it. If I don't post for a long time assume it wasn't correct and whoever survives me didn't know my password to post here.

 

[CK-1]

CK-1:
I can see you didn't like the just set it in & burn it suggestion. I would still like to know why this is any different that burning wood or coal in an open grate? Anyone who has an open fireplace would be in grave danger if this is a problem.
Elk:
If coal stove smoke is so corrosive, what was going on for the 300 years when people used coal as their primary source of heat, either in a stove or furnace, venting into masonry chimneys made of brick or stone? Many old potbelly stoves used single wall steel pipe. That should have corroded out in a matter of weeks.

Just a few questions.

With an open fireplace, the draft is pretty much open.. Meaning, the smoke is carried up the chimney and not going thru any baffles, tubes..etc...
A stove, to me has to draft properly due to the performance of the stove and the pieces inside the stove mentioned. Using the "Shove in the hole" method with these newer stoves today, will have you lighting the stove with a flame thrower.. having to keep the stove door open to keep the fire going and eventually a smoke filled living space....

 

[elkimmeg]

Mine you coal gasses . Well I did the best I can to educate the fellow. He just wants to ignore advice from 30 years experience. He made his bed willing to compromise his safety for a few $$$
What suprises me, is he seemed concerned about his flue collar connection, pointed fingers at all of harman then admits personally he is willing to put him and his familly at risk.
He was real concerned about getting proper acccurate advice ,when he did he chose to ignore it. Where should we monitor the OBITS collumn? Or should we care. If he ends up there we can't do I told you so

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hey elk,
i have a question about the cross sections information you posted earlier , i was under the impression the it was 2.5 times, has that changed? or am i misinformed , i just wanna know so im not wrong if i get asked. trying to keep current.

mike esw

 

[elkimmeg]

Mike Actually NFPA 211 is not a reconised code only for fireman. The international codes are the nationasl code base with chimneys and wood stoves it is the International
Mechanical codes and the one and two familly dwelling mmechanical codes. Finally in 2006 The boca to International codes make refference to NFPA 211.

The Cross- sectional code changed in 2003 3x exterior exposed chimney locations and 2x internal chimneys. Never was it 2.5 I have the 2000 and 2002 NFPA codes to check.
I know that stoves have to be re- certified every 5 years at that point the manuals will be updated to reflect the new cross sectional codes.
Mike Pm or e-mail me ,I might be able to help you out with the mechanical codes and copy some for you plus the NFPA. You hang around here you never know what tibits you can pick up
Hearth.com is part of my learning process. A week or two back I learned that there exist 600 degree duct tape for pelet stoves. I also learned that Never sieze has coumpounds that can withstand 3000 degrees. Hanging out here one does not have to Stay at Holiday Inn

Mike what calls NFPA 211 into enforcement is the stoves claim to be NFPA 211 compliant. If the listings call in a standard ,then that standard can be applied

 

[stoveguy2esw]

thanks elk, i need to look a few things up to see where i got that number , i will likely take you up on that offer soon , i think you and i are gonna get along just fine , unless i pester you to death LOL, thanks bro,

mike esw

 

[elkimmeg]

That could come with a price? Smiling

 

[BrotherBart]

thanks elk, i need to look a few things up to see where i got that number , i will likely take you up on that offer soon , i think you and i are gonna get along just fine , unless i pester you to death LOL, thanks bro,

mike esw

OMG. The guy in charge of warranty issues for my new stove and Elk are buddies now.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

i wouldnt worry about warranty issues BB that stove is a tank , besides if fed ex freight couldnt kill it dragging it back from colorado , it ought to last forever.

by the way , bob (our head lab guy ) loved the paint!

 

[elkimmeg]

This should not surprise anyone. American pride support of American manufacturing jobs. Is it any wonder I look favorably at Englander.
The only down side, is there affiliation with Home Crapo

 

[BrotherBart]

i wouldnt worry about warranty issues BB that stove is a tank , besides if fed ex freight couldnt kill it dragging it back from colorado , it ought to last forever.

by the way , bob (our head lab guy ) loved the paint!

Tell Bob that the five pound sledge hammer in the lower left corner of the picture wasn't used on the stove. It was for Elk's beloved blocking plate.

 

[coldinnj]

If I were a sensitive sort, I might take offense to what Elk said.
I have not ignored ideas, suggestions or advice from here. I have weighed such and made educated decisions as to what I percieve to be best. Remember please advice is as a suggestion & just that. I am not taking a "cheapo" way out. Spending money needlessly is not a wise use either. The only real difference I see is whether I line the chimney all the way to the top or ust to the first flue section. After researching I feel in this application going to the first section is good, safe and wise. Not for laziness, I just finished rebuilding the top of the chimney. I could have just as easily inserted a full length liner and saved a lot of work. As to the cost. I could have lined the entire thing for closee to what I am paying the dealer for his section. I could have used my source for the material but felt it was best to let the dealer have the profit as they are trying to be helpful.
I hope the idea of reading about me & those I care about in the obits was not wishful thinking.
I understand you are an inspector Elk. Please remember to ride that carefully. You are not the only one who has held that position. Some of us have been there done that. Learned both sides of the coin. I thank you for the advice. I welcome your opinion. I assume you were jesting and meant no malice with the obits comment. I would wish that on no one.

 

[elkimmeg]

Mission accomplished. I have you thinking. I have been known to emphaticically state my stance But to error on the side of safety I'm at fault
I gave you the best advice from the view as an inspector and 30 years of experience. I too do not want to spend wasted money, but will spend what is necessary to ensure safety
I'm not the best typest and it takes me considerable time to quote code. I do not take the time if I feel it is not worth my effort.
The Obits, coal gasses got you to respond . This is not a game. If you actually comply to the cross-sectional code, your situation is marginal at best. Its not my call but your local inspector's

Personally, if you lived closer, I would help you install the stove and full liner.

 

[seaken]

If I were a sensitive sort, I might take offense to what Elk said.
I have not ignored ideas, suggestions or advice from here. I have weighed such and made educated decisions as to what I percieve to be best. Remember please advice is as a suggestion & just that. I am not taking a "cheapo" way out. Spending money needlessly is not a wise use either. The only real difference I see is whether I line the chimney all the way to the top or ust to the first flue section. After researching I feel in this application going to the first section is good, safe and wise. Not for laziness, I just finished rebuilding the top of the chimney. I could have just as easily inserted a full length liner and saved a lot of work. As to the cost. I could have lined the entire thing for closee to what I am paying the dealer for his section. I could have used my source for the material but felt it was best to let the dealer have the profit as they are trying to be helpful.
I hope the idea of reading about me & those I care about in the obits was not wishful thinking.
I understand you are an inspector Elk. Please remember to ride that carefully. You are not the only one who has held that position. Some of us have been there done that. Learned both sides of the coin. I thank you for the advice. I welcome your opinion. I assume you were jesting and meant no malice with the obits comment. I would wish that on no one.

I gotta get out of here so don't have time to elaborate, but I would listen to elk and do the full liner. Yes, it's your decision, true. But why make a bad decison? Who does that help? The full re-line is the safe choice. I'll chime in with more later.

Sean

 

[masterswimmer]

The only way to truly find out if lining the chimney to the first flue section is safe or not could result in a horrific tragedy. I can't fathom how someone would elect to err on the side of the bare minimum (if they're lucky) and put their family in harms way when the information provided by a highly respected, 30 year veteran in the field, certified inspector recomends lining the chimney all the way up. Even if it costs an extra $1,000, big deal. What price do you put on the safety of your loved ones? I can only view this as the time to err on the side of caution.

Cold, you obviously saved a bundle of money buying the stove in the manner you did. Why don't you spend the money installing it so there is no question about the safety?

Elk, want to come down to NY to install my Harman XXV?

swimmer

 

[coldinnj]

OK, I understand the caution but think of this.
For well over thirty years this house has been heated via a coal furnace that dumps one side of the chimney into the clay flue. Probably a lot longer just don't know for sure what exactly the heat source was back then. I believe it was the same basic idea. At least 13 of those years I have carried on that practice. The basement is fairly open to the living areas of the house.
For a lot longer period of time the kitchen had its only cooking source as a coal stove, yep coal, with 2 ovens, 6 burners, that exhausted out into another chimney with the same setup. The hot water was done with a coal knee furnace going to the same kitchen chimney. This was active until about 12 years ago. (saved the cooking stove beautiful BTW) The fireplace is the only thing that burned wood only. Now I plan to burn coal in the fireplace side of the chimney. The former owners of this home lived here for several generations. The last, prior to me, ones (brother and sister) each died here in their 90's. Not simultaneously but years apart. Perhaps CO killed them. If so it took their entire lives to do so as they always lived here. If it is that bad a setup and takes that long... I'll give myself better odds on staying healthy here then surviving the drive to the local store for groceries. As it is I am doing a lot more to caution and protect than ever before was done here.
When dealing with codes one must understand the reasoning. Not all codes are reasonable to me.
A fine Example: A long time ago I had to deal with this in the very well thought out electrical codes. Working with the codes in the NEC, BOCA and local authority. Based on said codes and in simple terms, in a remodel situation, a Bathroom or kitchen must have a GFCI 20 amp outlet. However it did not have to be grounded. Stupid idea. Another winner. If the town of Phillipsburg N, when replacing the cover plate on an ungrounded outlet, the cover plate screw must be wood or plastic. Or try this one. When wiring up a pool with a Hayward 220v motor it must have GFCI protection hence a 220v GFCI breaker installed in the CP. One problem though... The listed motor in question does not have a load neutral. Local codes called for using said breaker and just isolating / snipping off the neutral lead. I understand the reasoning for all of the above mentioned, just don't agree. I can also go into fire ratings for areas in proximities to certain others and the whole gambit of useless or contradictory code info out there. As stated much thought has gone into this.
as to inspectors: I had a fine example of an inspector telling a customer that the roof needed to be replaced as it was slate and was about 70 years old. Therefore it was shot and they should replace with a shingle roof. I gave a written 10 year certification of said roof. That was about 25 years ago. Since then the roof has had 6 slates replaced and nothing else. By now there is a good chance had they replaced the roof it would be getting done again. I have also been instrumental in getting the county to change its standards in building material usage and practices.
I think I would be doing a better job by putting my family in only 3 point or better harnesses and crash helmets for the daily car rides. And putting my energies there then the full liner unless there is more info that I have not yet seen.
As with many other materials the POC will seek the easiest route. Not try to fight thermodynamics, physical barriers, Air pressure and other laws of physics to try and "get me".
Also we need to realize about the "lobbying" and other interests and other factors that sometimes go into these codes. I will be the first to say CODES ARE GOOD AND NECCESARY. That being said we should do not go through life with blinders on. We must think for ourselves at times and make informed logical decisions. Many of those SS liners when being used with coal will not last near as long as the clay flue currently being used. How many people would be willing after spending that much money on their liner to replace it after a few years?