considering an indoor boiler

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

What kind of advice would you folks give a feller that is considering an indoor wood boiler?

I've got hot water baseboard heat. 2400 sq. ft. of home to heat in central Wisconsin. The current boiler is a Baxi Luna natural gas on-demand boiler.

I have a VC Montpelier insert in the living room that does so-so in heating the house. Only drawback is I get nervous when the mercury drops, the hot water pipes run in outside walls and the Montpelier will heat well enough that the boiler won't kick in.

I'm thinking if I burned wood but used the water pipes to distribute the heat, I wouldn't worry about freezing pipes.

What brands of boilers do you folks recommend? And size?

Do all the boilers need hot water storage?

What kind of soaking am I going to take as far as price goes? And will these boilers use less wood than heating with my insert?

 

[webie]

If all you are worried about is the possibility of frozen heating pipes , Then why don't you just add antifreeze into your heating system .

 

[WoodNotOil]

There a lot of indoor brands to choose from. Gasification is the way to go and no they do not have to have storage. Storage can slightly increase efficiency, but mostly just lets you be flexible as to when you burn. The boilers run approx. $5k and up for most brands. Storage can be anything from self built open tank, recycled propane tanks, all the way up to manufactured storage which runs upwards of what the boiler costs. Check out my site in sig for ideas on brands.

 

[sbleiweiss]

I have a Jotul insert and if I ran that for an entire day, I would use about the same amount of wood that I feed to the wood boiler for a day. The wood boiler is definitely more efficient at recovering heat from the wood compared to a stove. That same amount of wood heats all of the house plus all of our hot water needs for 24 hours.

Storage is the most complicated part of the system, but makes the system more versatile. Last time I lit the boiler was Sunday night... Decide how often you want to tend to the boiler and also how far into the warmer months you want to burn wood.

I was surprised that my baseboard heat did not deliver as well with the wood boiler. It turns out that my oil boiler aquastat is set for 180 but the boiler was delivering closer to 200 degrees. Keep in mind what you need for supply temps and chose your style of storage, or plan radiator upgrades accordingly.

 

[sgschwend]

You are fortunate to have found this forum. I would recommend you take your time and study what is here, but do it over several days. When looking at equipment jump to the manufacturer's web site and read that too.

Then focus on system designs and see what is written about them, at the beginning of this forum there is a "saved" sections that are worth printing and studying that way.

You don't need to do any of this but it will help you understand what you might want to do and why things are done the way they are.

You will not need to re-invent the wheel but this can be a do it yourself subject, with lots of folks that tinker with their system. There are others that just stuff in some wood and light a fire. Another option is to hire the work done, you will likely be able to find a contractor that will carry the ball for you.

Welcome,

 

[pybyr]

An efficient wood boiler is definitely a whole 'nuther league in terms of how much heat you'll get per unit wood, and how evenly it'll be distributed.

Storage is a bonus, but you can plan your system so as to be able to add it easily, rather than trying to bite off all of the cost and/ or effort at once.

Tarm, Econoburn, EKO, Atmos are all, from what I gather, good units. Each has pros and cons, just like comparing vehicle brands. None of the aforementioned are "Yugos." A Garn, if it'd work for you in terms of physical space/ layout, may represent the ultimate combination of boiler+storage+operational/control simplicity all in one single "box."

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

If all you are worried about is the possibility of frozen heating pipes , Then why don’t you just add antifreeze into your heating system .

I've thought of that. But currently the one insert doesn't have the muscle to warm the entire house in sub-zero + wind conditions. So I really am leaning towards getting more wood heat.

I have another fireplace in the basement that I could put a second insert in. Plus I have a third flue that is no longer being used since my gas boiler is direct-vent.

I could:

A)install a woodburning boiler using the old boiler flue.
B)install a wood insert in the basement fireplace.
C)install a freestanding stove using the old boiler flue.

I am just considering my options.

A wood boiler might be worth the expense if it A) can indeed heat the house in the worst Wisconsin winter. B) Use less wood than heating the house using inserts and/or freestanding stoves.

If I'm going to have to burn the same 5 to 6 cords of wood with the boiler as I would with the inserts, it probably won't pay to get a boiler. I'll just go the anti-freeze route to protect the pipes.

 

[ewdudley]

If all you are worried about is the possibility of frozen heating pipes , Then why don’t you just add antifreeze into your heating system .

I've thought of that. But currently the one insert doesn't have the muscle to warm the entire house in sub-zero + wind conditions. So I really am leaning towards getting more wood heat.

...

If I'm going to have to burn the same 5 to 6 cords of wood with the boiler as I would with the inserts, it probably won't pay to get a boiler. I'll just go the anti-freeze route to protect the pipes.

We shut down our oil boiler and went to stove heat a few years back, but I maintain the boiler for family/guest B&B mode when needed. To insure against distal heat pipe freezing I wired up a cycle timer to run the circ pump every so often with all zones valves open. I never see any return water below 50F or so, so it's working for me, but it is a little off-putting to have cold radiators throughout the house. There's no evidence of the boiler heat exchanger plates going below dew point as I had thought they might.

The coal stove is working great and is convenient and economical, but it's loud and the price of coal has gone up an awful lot since the last time I stocked up a couple years ago, so we're going the wood boiler route.

--ewd

 

[webie]

I am not really sure here what you are all looking to do .If you may be thinking that by putting a wood boiler in that you will cut your wood consumption in 1/2 I would say that is farther from the truth.
I don't mean to scare you but there is the possibility you may actually burn more wood ! You have to remember that you will be going from space heating to whole house heating . I consider installing a wood fired boiler as an investment and in order to recoup as much cost as fast as possible I use its heat for all of my heating needs including this summers project of heating the hot tub . You need to figure out what you want to achieve and at what cost .
Option 1 If you have a open bank account I would do what I and others have done and that is a gasification boiler with storage ( this doesnt have to be done at once but should be planned for )
Option 2 Keep your eyes open for a used indoor wood boiler , install that and see how it works for you , I sold my old boiler for 500 about 8 years ago , my brother just bought one 4 years ago for 200 , pulled it out of a old farm house . This could be a cheaper way of getting your feet wet , it just depends where your funds are at . and chances are you wont loose any money other than maybe some install and piping cost cause you can always resell it .
You need to figure out what you want to do .
It sounds to me from what I have read is your wood stove isn't quite big enough for heating below zero your whole home . If you are happy heating with it just charge some anti freeze into your system .
The way it has been so far this year here and I am in east central Wisconsin use your natural gas boiler the 2 nights we have had so far below zero to supplement your heat .
Remember your backup unit needs to be run now and again too so it is dependable , and you probably pay a minimum monthly charge anyways just to be hooked up to natural gas .
For allot of us these gasification boilers and cutting wood are hobbies , yes we get return from it but its not free either .
I think at one time when I added up my whole heating system for the house , wood boiler , gas boiler ,piping ,pumps , storage , I think I was around 13000 and that was only roughly adding it up . But the last time I had my 500 gal L.P. tank filled was 2001 , still darn near full too but I have probably gone thru some 60 plus full cord of wood , and I have my own wood lot so that is free just my time to cut and split and haul .
Now you can ask us our opinion about different types of heat but you and only you can make the decision on what you really want , want to achieve and can afford .
Read the threads , do some reading check things out ask us what we think or know about different systems or how they work but ultimately its your decision and wallet ,
Sorry if I was ranting
webie

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Thanks guys. You have all been very helpful.

You helped me reach the conclusion that an indoor wood boiler just isn't worth it for me. My current insert handles much of my heating needs and to spend $5K just for that extra oomph will take a lifetime to pay for itself.

Currently I have the thermostat set so that right about 4:00 a.m. it jumps from 67* to 69*. This pretty much ensures that the gas boiler kicks in at least once a day. For the rest of the waking hours (my wife stays home) the Montpelier keeps the thermostat suppressed. I think a couple hundred $ for antifreeze in the boiler pipes would be the best way to ease my concerns.

I can cut enough wood for the Montpelier. It doesn't appear that a wood boiler will net me any benefit in that department.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks guys. You have all been very helpful.

You helped me reach the conclusion that an indoor wood boiler just isn't worth it for me. My current insert handles much of my heating needs and to spend $5K just for that extra oomph will take a lifetime to pay for itself.

Currently I have the thermostat set so that right about 4:00 a.m. it jumps from 67* to 69*. This pretty much ensures that the gas boiler kicks in at least once a day. For the rest of the waking hours (my wife stays home) the Montpelier keeps the thermostat suppressed. I think a couple hundred $ for antifreeze in the boiler pipes would be the best way to ease my concerns.

I can cut enough wood for the Montpelier. It doesn't appear that a wood boiler will net me any benefit in that department.

You might be right... However what I'd expect would be for about the same, or maybe a little more wood, you can heat the entire house to the same or better comfort level, and get your hot water as well during the heating season... Do a bit more wood and you can crank the thermostat up higher, and do hot water year round... It would probably be LESS wood to do a gasification boiler and use the fuel that you were burning in the upstairs insert in the boiler, as opposed to adding a second insert or free standing stove in the basement, and having to cut wood for both...

Gooserider

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

"It would probably be LESS wood to do a gasification boiler and use the fuel that you were burning in the upstairs insert in the boiler, as opposed to adding a second insert or free standing stove in the basement, and having to cut wood for both"

Hmm. I'm thinking that with two inserts/stoves I would not burn both at the same time except during the coldest parts of winter.

While yes, I agree that the gasification boiler is superior, I am not convinced that the return will be that much more given the investment. In other words, I don't think it would be wise to spend $5K on a boiler just for the sake of domestic hot water (around $50/month) and the dozen days or so when the Montpelier seems inadequate. I've got other things to spend the $5K on like canoes, trailers, tents, guns...

 

[Birdman]

If you have 5g to spend on all those goodies.....then go wild! Forget the boiler! On the other hand....I had a woodstove too in the beginning. It was sufficient. I would fill it up all winter.. had dust in my living area... filled it up every 6 hours.. had heat fluctuations... too hot... not hot enough. Then i sold it. Bought a Tarm( or invested my 6700 dollars). NOW. .. I have controlled heat in each zone. Fill it up with wood only 2-3 times a day. It is in basement... no smoke in house... or mess in house. Heat hot water too for showers etc. AND use 5 cord per year... when before with woodstove i used 3-4 cord and a lot more oil. SOOO now i use very little oil.. and i figure my payback on my investment is 4 years. After 4 years i will gain 2-3 thousand dollars per year. That sets me up to buy a whole lot of those goodies we both like in my future. Now... lets see after i hit my payback... in 10 years i will gain at least 20,000 dollars. What do i want to buy for goodies?

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Birdman,

Ok. So if $6700 pays back in 48 months that would mean you were using $139/month in oil for domestic water and heat even though you were burning 3-4 cord/year?

I can see where it makes sense for you to go the route of a gasification boiler.

I am not spending $139/month on hot water and oil. It looks like it will be more around $50-$75/month. That pushes the payback period to 8+ years. By the end of 14 years I would have saved only $5400 compared to your $20K. You would take in $2.90 for every dollar spent to purchase a boiler. I would only make $0.80.

Plus I could do a lot of canoeing, camping, shooting in that 14 years I'm waiting for the boiler to save me $.

Bottom line is it makes excellent sense for you. It doesn't appear to be a prudent way to spend money for me. This forum did it's job in helping me to make informed choices.

 

[Gooserider]

No argument from me... Much as some of us boiler enthusiasts hate to admit it, boilers aren't the answer for everyone... It can be just as useful to find that out, as it would be to find out what the best boiler would be, so I agree we did our job well...

Good luck w/ whatever heating choices you make Black Jaque, and don't be afraid to shift over to the Hearth room if you want to work on figuring out the best second burner for the basement that isn't a boiler....

Gooserider

 

[Birdman]

Looks like the math is right. Math doesn't lie. I chose the Tarm because it fit my needs. I guess I could have found a way to NOT have it fit my needs as well. If I chose to build a better insulated, smaller house, and designed it to heat with a woodstove. However... then again... I think if I had to build my house all over.. and make it smaller and better insulated I still would have gone with the Tarm. I am in my house for the long term. I suppose if one builds a house and chooses to put in a heating system then teh payback period becomes less time? But for many.. if teh heating system is already there.. it would make less sense to swap it out. Payback becomes longer.

It would be cool to see some if the smart dudes here make a list of some random heating systems for a random house and do the numbers

For example a 2000 sq ft house... has a certain heat loss.. how much to install an oil boiler and tank and all the baseboard? or radiant? I know I know " IT DEPENDS " . But can someone make a spreadsheet so we can change these numbers and play with it? I know one guy on here is a wiz at this idea. Alos add price of oil

Then to compare... we could install the wood boiler..

I know i am not being specifice here... but does anyone get where i am going?

For example. I wonder if the person in this thread would have been better off if he started his system off with teh wood boiler instead... how long would it be before his payoff?

I must agree in his current situation.. it does not make sense to go with the boiler because his system is all there teh payback is a long time. HOwever... if given the choice to begin with when the house was first built.. would the system have made economic sense?