Cops: Chimney work caused fatal fire

[MacPB]

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/articles/2009/10/03/local_news/883248.txt

Investigator says repairs were done improperly, allowing hot gases to escape, starting blaze
By ANDREW LERSTEN - H-P South Haven Bureau
Published: Saturday, October 3, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
BANGOR - Thursday's fatal house fire in Bangor underscores the need to leave chimney work to the professionals, said Sgt. Scott LeRoy, a state police fire marshal who investigated the blaze.

The fire killed all three occupants, David and Cindy Hoaglin and their 15-year-old daughter, Chelsea.

LeRoy got a close look at the fire-damaged, two-story house at 111 N. Center St. and concluded that a recent "amateur" chimney repair job caused the fire, he said.

"It appears that the chimney for the wood stove was recently worked on, and the work was done incorrectly," LeRoy said on Friday.

"Some sections of pipe were put in backward, and as a result it allowed the hot gases in the chimney to escape all around the joints," he explained. "Also, the clearances appeared to not be far enough, and the wall of the house behind the chimney was wood, versus drywall or brick. That's going to allow the hot gases to come out, in the attic space, and they'll collect and heat up until it heats up the wall (and ignites)."

LeRoy said he believes the chimney work was done recently, probably in the past couple of months.

"That (Wednesday night) was the first cold night of the season," he noted. "We had a frost that night." The fire reportedly started around 2 a.m. Thursday.

"It appears to have been an amateur job," LeRoy said. "Any work done on a chimney or wood stove should be done by a licensed installer, or there could be a very serious consequence."

 

[colebrookman]

http://www.heraldpalladium.com/articles/2009/10/03/local_news/883248.txt

Investigator says repairs were done improperly, allowing hot gases to escape, starting blaze
By ANDREW LERSTEN - H-P South Haven Bureau
Published: Saturday, October 3, 2009 1:09 PM EDT
BANGOR - Thursday's fatal house fire in Bangor underscores the need to leave chimney work to the professionals, said Sgt. Scott LeRoy, a state police fire marshal who investigated the blaze.

The fire killed all three occupants, David and Cindy Hoaglin and their 15-year-old daughter, Chelsea.

LeRoy got a close look at the fire-damaged, two-story house at 111 N. Center St. and concluded that a recent "amateur" chimney repair job caused the fire, he said.

"It appears that the chimney for the wood stove was recently worked on, and the work was done incorrectly," LeRoy said on Friday.
This points again to the importance of this forum. In reality many of us work on and install our own chimneys. Sometimes we don't know what we don't know but by asking on the forum we can get reliable feedback from those who have been there done that, and done it safely. The article never mentioned the importance of fire and Co alarms. These continue to save lives if installed and used properly. Now the have the dual sensor alarms which have both photo and heat sensers. Some even have voice to awke sleeping children although if you have children as old as twenty one, plan on waking them yourself and do not realie

"Some sections of pipe were put in backward, and as a result it allowed the hot gases in the chimney to escape all around the joints," he explained. "Also, the clearances appeared to not be far enough, and the wall of the house behind the chimney was wood, versus drywall or brick. That's going to allow the hot gases to come out, in the attic space, and they'll collect and heat up until it heats up the wall (and ignites)."

LeRoy said he believes the chimney work was done recently, probably in the past couple of months.

"That (Wednesday night) was the first cold night of the season," he noted. "We had a frost that night." The fire reportedly started around 2 a.m. Thursday.

"It appears to have been an amateur job," LeRoy said. "Any work done on a chimney or wood stove should be done by a licensed installer, or there could be a very serious consequence."

This reinforces the need for this forum. Often we don't know what we don't know but here we can ask and receive great advice from those who have been there, done that. Why reinvent the wheel. I did not read any mention of smoke and Co alarms going off in the above piece. Any one who does not have the necessary alarms in their homes today is an idiot, period. Yet we go in homes with no alarms or disconnected alarms because they are a nuisance. Playing Russian roulette with you family is unconscionable. There are new dual detectors that have both heat and smoke sensors and even voice. But if you have children up to 21 years old plan on saving them because the alarms probably will not wake them. Be safe.
Ed

 

[Danno77]

how do you put in a couple of pipes in backwards?

I'm confused. I bet they were put in right (top goes into bottom) and this "investigator" thinks that this allowed gases to come out the fitting. That's the main reason so many people get confused on those stove pipes.

I'm sorry to be skeptical, but I don't want to see another fire blamed on a woodstove if it's not the real cause. if nothing else, at least they are saying it's because of incorrect installation and not blaming woodburning devices in general.

 

[begreen]

Very sad. As for backward pipe, it could be right, hard to say without seeing the remains of the installation. People try to cobble together some odd solutions when they can't get an adapter for example. If this was single-wall run up through the attic space, the point is moot.

 

[savageactor7]

Well OK that started the fire but functional smoke detectors could have saved those lives. R.I.P. to the victims but we that play with fire have to take all necessary precautions to ensure our own personal safety. That would include a rehearsed evacuation plan too.

 

[meathead]

I’m with Danno - I’d bet the pipe was installed correctly upward facing female around downward facing male ends of pipes. Even if it was installed incorrectly and the male ends faced up into downward turned female ends, this wouldn’t allow gas to escape into the house. The reason it is done the other way around is that dust, creosote, etc falls down the pipe into the stove when cleaned etc. instead of falling/dripping out around the pipe. The correct installation of the pipe is counterintuitive when it comes to gas flow, which I bet screwed up the “investigation”. Not to mention that he cites clearance issues without stating what type of pipe was used. With today’s chimney options, the guy could have gotten himself the right pipes and not needed much clearance.

Aside from blaming the fire on a woodstove without a whole lot of conclusive evidence (as stated in the article), I’d hate to die in a fire and then have the newspaper tell all my buddies it was because I was a crappy DIYer if that wasn’t the case.

 

[Highbeam]

I also think the fire marshal could have been making a huge mistake here. If you put pipe in upside down then the gasses look more likely to rise properly but creosote leaks out. Put it in properly and it looks like gas could leak but is dripless. In no case will it leak gas unless there are gaps or very loose connections.

He also seems to think that there must be something other than wood around the chimney in the attic. He is wrong. All types of stove pipe have minimum clearances to combustibles. The combustible can be wood, sheetrock, or roofing.

I think perhaps this fire marshal condemned the family, and perhaps ruined the memories, by pointing fingers at the install.

On the other hand, the guy could have used aluminum foil wrapped around a toilet paper tube for a chimney and actually caused the fire.

 

[Slow1]

Also consider - the person writing the story may have selected the 'most interesting' quotes from quite a long explanation of what was found. What was said may have been offered was a few theories of what caused the fire and the reporter ran with what stuck in his/her mind and made the best headlines. It happens...

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Also consider - the person writing the story may have selected the 'most interesting' quotes from quite a long explanation of what was found. What was said may have been offered was a few theories of what caused the fire and the reporter ran with what stuck in his/her mind and made the best headlines. It happens...

That's exactly what I was thinking. Of the few "newspaper reported" incidents or accidents that I have been witness or privy it seems they always somehow get their facts skewed up a little bit. Often they have to condense a lot of information or notes into a a short paragraph or two and since the reporter often doesn't fully understand all the science or circumstances they simply take selected quotes from their "expert" to build their article, but often get them either in the wrong order, or without relevant facts or connecting information for it all to make sense.
However, I guess the main point still gets through, and that is that playing with fire can be dangerous.

 

[Highbeam]

But now the friends and family think that the poor dad killed his family by being too cheap to hire a pro when he should have.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

But now the friends and family think that the poor dad killed his family by being too cheap to hire a pro when he should have.

That is possible, but it's pretty hard to draw any solid conclusions, especially based on that confusing bit of reporting. It may be that some "friends or family" were the ones that did, or helped do, the amateur chimney work that caused the fire. For their sakes I hope not, that would be a hard thing to live with.
I'm an avid do it yourselfer, I installed both my own chimneys in my house and in my shop to save money (I didn't hire a a pro), but I did fork out a few $$$ to have a WETT certified inspector inspect my house chimney for insurance purposes (and peace of mind). Likely had the father had his chimney work inspected by a pro he could have saved his family's lives.

 

[colebrookman]

Not to beat a dead horse but if the father had spent a few $$$ on smoke and Co alarms he and his family at least would have a chance to escape a fire. Be safe.
Ed

 

[humpin iron]

I have been in the wood stove business for 30 years. I have seen some amazing cob jobs. I have also read some very amazing Cob job advice given on this site. Remember a lot of people will dismiss good advice because there is more $$ involved than they want to spend and the next posting is wrong but is far cheaper. Then 2-3 other people will write in and say the first advice was wrong and the second guy was right.
I advise people very often, take plumbing advise from a plumber, roofing advice from a roofer, etc etc.

 

[jtp10181]

I have been in the wood stove business for 30 years. I have seen some amazing cob jobs. I have also read some very amazing Cob job advice given on this site. Remember a lot of people will dismiss good advice because there is more $$ involved than they want to spend and the next posting is wrong but is far cheaper. Then 2-3 other people will write in and say the first advice was wrong and the second guy was right.
I advise people very often, take plumbing advise from a plumber, roofing advice from a roofer, etc etc.

Amen to that....

and the wall of the house behind the chimney was wood, versus drywall or brick.

Also this pretty much sums up the qualifications of LeRoy. drywall or brick... and how are these two materials related? Drywall has paper on it.... last time I checked paper starts on fire, better than wood in most cases.

 

[Russ in Chicagoland]

I will be installing my own chimney next week thru a second floor bedroom, then attic. It's a serious decision to do such work, but I'll sleep better at night knowing every inch is installed and triple checked correctly, and clearances met. After reading this thread, I'll be adding a few new detectors as well. Thanks friends.

 

[MacPB]

I will be installing my own chimney next week thru a second floor bedroom, then attic. It’s a serious decision to do such work, but I’ll sleep better at night knowing every inch is installed and triple checked correctly, and clearances met. After reading this thread, I’ll be adding a few new detectors as well. Thanks friends.

You may already be doing this, but just in case (and maybe an expert can advise), I think you should double the sheetrock on the indoor chase.

Mike

 

[greythorn3]

double the sheetrock? im installing next week also, thru attic.. i was wondering if anyone had a good advice/way for keeping the insulation off the stove pipe with blow in? do you just box the hole in with sheetmetal 2" from the double wall insulated pipe? or what?

 

[jtp10181]

double the sheetrock? im installing next week also, thru attic.. i was wondering if anyone had a good advice/way for keeping the insulation off the stove pipe with blow in? do you just box the hole in with sheetmetal 2" from the double wall insulated pipe? or what?

You get an attic insulation shield from pipe manufacturer. Otherwise you can custom make your own out of metal.

I have no idea why you would double the sheetrock in the chase unless you are trying to create a shaft wall. Its not a commercial building so....

 

[daleeper]

double the sheetrock? im installing next week also, thru attic.. i was wondering if anyone had a good advice/way for keeping the insulation off the stove pipe with blow in? do you just box the hole in with sheetmetal 2" from the double wall insulated pipe? or what?

I know simpson makes an insulation barrior for their duraplus system, I would assume others do also. Take a look at the catalog of the system you are installing.

 

[MacPB]

double the sheetrock? im installing next week also, thru attic.. i was wondering if anyone had a good advice/way for keeping the insulation off the stove pipe with blow in? do you just box the hole in with sheetmetal 2” from the double wall insulated pipe? or what?

Maybe not necessary, but where my interior chase runs through second floor linen closet I boxed it out with the 2" minimum clearance and used 2 layers of .5" sheetrock for an added measure for a fire break in case a fire started in there. It then runs through an attic using the attic insulation shield provided by the Selkirk HT kit I purchased.

 

[MacPB]

chase...

 

[firefighterjake]

While we're on the topic of smoke detectors . . . a few facts some folks don't know.

* Smoke detectors have a "life expectancy" of about 10 years . . . if your detectors are 10 years or older it's time to replace them.

* All smoke detectors are not created equal . . . there are two different types of sensors . . . for the absolute best protection I recommend folks install dual photo-electric/ionization detectors or one of both types throughout the home (one on every level of the house, in the bedrooms and in the hall outside the bedrooms.)

* Carbon monoxide detectors also have a "life expectancy" -- this varies according to manufacturer -- anywhere from 3-7 years. In general it's a good practice to replace these every 4-5 years.

* Smoke detector tech has evolved . . . do you hate those nuisance alarms caused when you open the oven door or take a hot shower and the steam sets it off . . . don't pull the battery or unplug it . . . but you may consider buying a detector with a hush feature that you can silence for 5 minutes (giving you time to clear the air with a fan, opening a window, etc.) . . . after five minutes they automatically reset which prevents you from yanking out the battery and then forgetting to put it back in

* As mentioned, young children sometimes have problems hearing the detector . . . some newer detectors have voice prompts (either pre-recorded or the parents can record their own voice) to wake up the children as they respond quicker to this type

* Having working smoke detectors is great (although 1 in 5 don't work namely because they have been disabled due to nuisance alarms) . . . but having working detectors without an escape plan is like having a chainsaw without a chain . . . it sounds great and makes a lot of noise, but it just won't work . . . make sure everyone knows how to get out and where the meeting place is . . . the time to think of an evacuation plan is not at 2 a.m. when the detectors are going off and the house is filling with smoke.

 

[colebrookman]

Excellent explanation firefighterjake. Could this be a sticky or some kind of reminder for all of us on the forum? It's heart breaking to read or worst be involved in a fire tragedy with homeowners who neglected to take precautions. Just as bad when you are at a vehicle accident and someone dies because they were thrown out because they were not wearing a seat belt. We all assume that it won't happen to us. Every time that you see a firetruck or an ambulance go by, it's not a practice run, the sh.. has hit the fan for someone. Be safe.
Ed

 

[Deep Fryer]

Thank you for all the advice Jake, I purchased a slew of detectors in august for my whole house, basement, main floor & second floors including the bedrooms. Didnt know about replacing the Co detectors every 4-5 years, will keep that in mind. ;-)

Excellent explanation firefighterjake. Could this be a sticky or some kind of reminder for all of us on the forum? It's heart breaking to read or worst be involved in a fire tragedy with homeowners who neglected to take precautions.Ed

I'd like to second that, a lot of people visit this forum and this is important information that is easily overlooked or not taken seriously enough.
A "Safety Sticky" would be another added measure for those who just casually peruse parts of this forum but could potentially be one of the most important threads we could have.

My 2c.

 

[firefighterjake]

i test smoke detector with a cig. & co detector with car exhaust.i dont trust the test buttons.

Well I don't know if you are just kidding or not, but believe it or not Pook you do have a point here . . . when you hit the test button, in most cases, the only thing you're testing is that the alarm has power and the audible alarm is working . . . in most cases it's not testing the sensing unit. For this reason, some places actually test their detectors with a "canned smoke". Quite honestly, the biggest reason detectors do not work (1 in 5 cases) is the power has been cut off (disconnected in the case of AC-powered units, unplugged batteries in the case of DC-powered units) . . . as for the sensors . . . best thing is to replace in the time intervals suggested.

I should add that I do not advocate testing detectors with cigarettes and car exhaust . . . but the point is that hitting the test button doesn't always test the detector in the way you think it might be testing it.