corner shower/ showerhead aim?

[pybyr]

Since Hearth is inhabited by a lot of people with active minds, skills, experience, and a willingness to help, let me pose this one to folks here:

I've done a fair amount of plumbing, and am usually pretty good at creative solutions or work-arounds, but maybe I have a brain cramp on this one- and I'm hoping someone else has solved this one or has an idea.

For background-- When I added an upstairs bathroom to my old farmhouse a few years back, I put in a fiberglass "corner shower" with glass door/ edge sides. Basically the glass door is at a 45 degree angle to the walls. It's a decent sized unit- not one of the tiny ones- but also not some monument-type thing you'd see in a McMansion. Showerhead & mounting arm are pretty ordinary- a non-exotic Moen showerhead and a chrome pipe with about a 45 degree bend. Shower valve allows control of both temperature and flow.

So here's the puzzle-

Like just about any shower, you have to let it run a bit for the hot water to make its way from the water heater to the shower. To do that, you of course have to open the door, since the control is in the shower. And the showerhead aims at the door-so, if the door is open and the water flow is turned on full tilt, it comes raining out the open door -- which is not a problem for me, since I temporarily turn the showerhead a bit to the side, and turn the water flow on only part-way.

The problem arises with (a) guests; and (b) my son, who is old enough to shower, but not old enough to reach the showerhead like I do to temporarily turn it to the side for the warm-up phase.

There must be a lot of corner showers in the world, and the designers and users presumably don't want water raining out the open door as one opens and closes it to get the water up to temp, and then again to step in. My bathroom floor is wide spruce planks (original to the house) with a clear epoxy marine grade varnish on top, so it won't be phased at all by the occasional water spatter- but on the other hand, the floor, or the ceiling below, are not going to do well if there's a regular shower occurring outside the door as well as inside.

Suggestions welcomed! Thanks

 

[Detector$]

How about a small electric "on demand unit" under your counter in the same bathroom? Or run the hot water in the faucet closest to the shower? I'm no plumber, just a simpleton..... You're still going to have a few seconds of cold while the water clears from the pipe between the shower and the faucet provided the sink faucet is in-line before the shower....

 

[pybyr]

How about a small electric "on demand unit" under your counter in the same bathroom? Or run the hot water in the faucet closest to the shower? I'm no plumber, just a simpleton..... You're still going to have a few seconds of cold while the water clears from the pipe between the shower and the faucet provided the sink faucet is in-line before the shower....

Thanks for the suggestions, but there'd be no good way to locate a small/ separate water heater near the shower (weaving the water supply, drains, duct, etc into a post and beam/ plaster and lath structure was already tricky, and I've plumbed the shower and the rest of my house with a pex "home run" system (each end use/ fixture has its own run of pipe back to a central valved manifold). The home-run type plumbing has some really good points, especially for anyone doing a "build or renovate as you go")(it also completely eliminates the variations in temperature & pressure you get in a regular system depending on who turns what on or where) but it does mean that running the bathroom faucet does not raise the temp. in the water line to the shower

 

[SolarAndWood]

I assume the walls and ceiling are closed up? My plumber ran what I think he called a circulator loop to a remote bathroom. It produced instant water at temp and I think it was as simple as a second pipe, tee and one-way valve?

 

[Gooserider]

You might try going to a hand held shower - many can be had with height adjustable brackets designed with kids in mind, or you can get multiple holders for the shower head and put them at different heights...

A hand held shower is also a MAJOR improvement in the whole shower experience, as it allows you to get the spray up close for better rinsing, or direct application to those areas that are hidden from the spray in a normal shower by overhanging body parts... I know that having to use a conventional shower is usually one of my biggest regrets when travelling - I install one in any place that I live as an early modification.

I would also second the earlier suggestion of finding some way to do a recirculation loop to get the hot water to the faucet before you turn it on. Some of the systems I've seen use a small stainless or brass circ in the DHW line at the water heater, and a thermally controlled valve that ties the hot and cold lines together. The circ can either run constantly or on a timer for the expected shower times (not very efficient, but easier to install) or have some sort of signal control to tell it you want hot water. The circ pressurizes the hot water line, and the thermally controlled valve allows it to push the hot water to the fixture, while the cold water in the line gets pushed back to the hot water heater. As soon as the thermal valve sees hot water it shuts off the flow, so that you end up with only the small amount of water in the pipe between the valve and the shower head being cold...

Gooserider

 

[pybyr]

I assume the walls and ceiling are closed up? My plumber ran what I think he called a circulator loop to a remote bathroom. It produced instant water at temp and I think it was as simple as a second pipe, tee and one-way valve?

Yes. it's all closed in and the finish work is done, but thanks.

 

[pybyr]

You might try going to a hand held shower - many can be had with height adjustable brackets designed with kids in mind, or you can get multiple holders for the shower head and put them at different heights...

A hand held shower is also a MAJOR improvement in the whole shower experience, as it allows you to get the spray up close for better rinsing, or direct application to those areas that are hidden from the spray in a normal shower by overhanging body parts... I know that having to use a conventional shower is usually one of my biggest regrets when travelling - I install one in any place that I live as an early modification.

I would also second the earlier suggestion of finding some way to do a recirculation loop to get the hot water to the faucet before you turn it on. Some of the systems I've seen use a small stainless or brass circ in the DHW line at the water heater, and a thermally controlled valve that ties the hot and cold lines together. The circ can either run constantly or on a timer for the expected shower times (not very efficient, but easier to install) or have some sort of signal control to tell it you want hot water. The circ pressurizes the hot water line, and the thermally controlled valve allows it to push the hot water to the fixture, while the cold water in the line gets pushed back to the hot water heater. As soon as the thermal valve sees hot water it shuts off the flow, so that you end up with only the small amount of water in the pipe between the valve and the shower head being cold...

Gooserider

Thanks, Goose-- I've heard of the circulator loops, but never the thermostatic valve-- but in my case, the plumbing (at least all the way from cellar to 2nd floor fixtures) is all closed in.

The hand-held shower is a good idea for me to look into-- since you're an afficionado of those, Goose, what do you consider to be some makes/ models that are good quality, practical, and not overpriced?

Thanks

 

[billb3]

We have a corner shower and the showerhead is on one wall aimed at the other, not the door.

We have a handheld removable showerhead which only the mastiff struggles with.

 

[pybyr]

We have a corner shower and the showerhead is on one wall aimed at the other, not the door.

We have a handheld removable showerhead which only the mastiff struggles with.

Billb3-- can you describe where the showerhead is on one wall, and whether the pipe arm that the head is on is a generic/ regular 45 degree one? In my situation, the pipe comes out of the middle of the left-hand wall- but I'm not seeing how it could point all the way at the opposite wall of the shower (unless the pipe were further out near the corner of the left wall (at which point a movable hand-held showerhead starts looking like a better solution)

 

[Gooserider]

You might try going to a hand held shower - many can be had with height adjustable brackets designed with kids in mind, or you can get multiple holders for the shower head and put them at different heights...

A hand held shower is also a MAJOR improvement in the whole shower experience, as it allows you to get the spray up close for better rinsing, or direct application to those areas that are hidden from the spray in a normal shower by overhanging body parts... I know that having to use a conventional shower is usually one of my biggest regrets when travelling - I install one in any place that I live as an early modification.

I would also second the earlier suggestion of finding some way to do a recirculation loop to get the hot water to the faucet before you turn it on. Some of the systems I've seen use a small stainless or brass circ in the DHW line at the water heater, and a thermally controlled valve that ties the hot and cold lines together. The circ can either run constantly or on a timer for the expected shower times (not very efficient, but easier to install) or have some sort of signal control to tell it you want hot water. The circ pressurizes the hot water line, and the thermally controlled valve allows it to push the hot water to the fixture, while the cold water in the line gets pushed back to the hot water heater. As soon as the thermal valve sees hot water it shuts off the flow, so that you end up with only the small amount of water in the pipe between the valve and the shower head being cold...

Gooserider

Thanks, Goose-- I've heard of the circulator loops, but never the thermostatic valve-- but in my case, the plumbing (at least all the way from cellar to 2nd floor fixtures) is all closed in.

The hand-held shower is a good idea for me to look into-- since you're an afficionado of those, Goose, what do you consider to be some makes/ models that are good quality, practical, and not overpriced?

Thanks

I just checked, the one we are currently using is a Waterpik unit, but there are a lot of different brands that seem to be reasonably decent quality - check out your favorite big-box for a decent selection, though you might need to go online or to a bathroom place for some of the fancier sliding brackets. You can get all sorts of different models with umpteen selectable spray patterns - I find that it can be fun to play with those, but mostly you end up settling on one as your normal choice - I like the tight cone spray on ours. IMHO the value point seems to be at the medium low price range - skip the cheapest units, but the next notch or two up seem to give good function w/o an excessive price. Mostly what you get w/ the higher priced units are fancier finishes, and more bells and whistles such as added spray patterns and the like.

Even with the fancy units we aren't talking a huge amount of money - it has been a while since I got one, but last tlme I looked, I think prices ranged from around $15-60 for the basic units, more if you wanted the height adjustable holders. Install is usually simple - unscrew the showerhead, and screw the hose and / or mounting bracket in it's place. The only complication is if you have a "ball end" shower arm instead of a threaded one - in that case you have to replace the shower arm with a threaded one.

The biggest quality difference that I see is in the hose - there are two types that I've seen, one is a sort of plastic coated metallic spiral - avoid as they tend to blow out after a year or two. The other style is a fabric braid reinforced clear hose (like the ones you will sometimes see on soda fountain tank lines) that seems to be much more durable.

Another thing to look for is whether or not the code required flow restriction device can be easily removed - yes they save water, but only by giving a wimpy spray.... On the better quality units the restrictor is a little stick like item in the handpeice where the hose screws in, and it can be taken out just by pulling... The cheaper units mold a tight space in the water passage, which can't be fixed...

Lastly, if you have a problem w/ mineral buildup, it might be worth looking to see if the handpeice can be disassembled for cleaning - some can, many can't...

Another function that I like is a water cutoff that lets you shut the spray down to a trickle - especially handy if you have a tight stall that makes dodging the spray difficult. This lets you shut the water flow down while lathering up, but keep the water temp / pressure adjusted the way you want, then turn the water back on to rinse off... Our bathroom has this function in the faucet control - the lever that sends the water to the tub faucet or the showerhead cuts off most of the flow at the midpoint; but you can also get this as a function on some shower handpeices, or as an extra peice to stick in the line.

Gooserider

 

[gpcollen1]

The shower head would have to be on the wall adjacent to the door - which I guess is not that long in your case. I would never have the shower head facing the door like that.

At this point, a hand held is the best option mainly because you can just swivel it a bit and point it away from the door enough to keep it dry.

 

[billb3]

We have a corner shower and the showerhead is on one wall aimed at the other, not the door.

We have a handheld removable showerhead which only the mastiff struggles with.

Billb3-- can you describe where the showerhead is on one wall, and whether the pipe arm that the head is on is a generic/ regular 45 degree one? In my situation, the pipe comes out of the middle of the left-hand wall- but I'm not seeing how it could point all the way at the opposite wall of the shower (unless the pipe were further out near the corner of the left wall (at which point a movable hand-held showerhead starts looking like a better solution)

There was originally just a standard straight (no down angle) pipe nipple with a showerhead fixture with a ball that allowed the head to be swivelled either way a good 45 degrees. (up / down / left / right)
It has since been replaced with a removable shower head on a hose that mounts on a rod that is like a vertical towel rod, allowing for variable heights.


The mastiff really does like to take a shower - just usually not when you want her to.

 

[fossil]

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...sCFSIuagoduz_B5w&locStoreNum=4008&marketID=77


http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...=aps&hvadid=3451221659&ref=pd_sl_35w54crrwq_b

 

[pybyr]

Thanks, all, for the input and suggestions-- I've got guests now, but will look up those links in a couple of days.

 

[LLigetfa]

I have a corner unit. I kept the original fixed shower head and added an adjustable hand shower on a diverter valve which is left on the hand shower position. The hand shower being adjustable, is always stowed low so that my wife can reach it as she is shorter than I. The hand shower is also stowed swung away from the door so the water can be run while standing in the shower and not be hit with cold water.

Some people design their shower with a diverter to a small spigot down low called a toe tester.

My shower is close to the water heater so it takes no time to run hot. Even at that, I run the tap at the sink for a minute first.

 

[jebatty]

Hang a wash cloth over the shower head so that the water just runs to the floor of the shower until the water is hot.

Recirculation loops provide instant hot water at the expense of wasting lots of btu's as the hot water continually runs through the pipes, plus the watts to run the circ. On demand hot water heaters also can result in lots of "wasted" water and heating energy as now hot water never runs out.

 

[Gooserider]

Hang a wash cloth over the shower head so that the water just runs to the floor of the shower until the water is hot.

Recirculation loops provide instant hot water at the expense of wasting lots of btu's as the hot water continually runs through the pipes, plus the watts to run the circ. On demand hot water heaters also can result in lots of "wasted" water and heating energy as now hot water never runs out.

Depends on how tightly controlled the circ is - I agree it wastes a lot of energy if you are running all the time, but if you can set it up so that it only runs when you actually want to pre-heat the line, then the energy cost is pretty minimal. The flip question is what about the cost of the water "wasted" by running it down the drain while warming the line otherwise... Ditto for the problem w/ on demand water heaters, or any other setup that gives "unlimited" hot water - it is a question of how much discipline one has about being able to shut it off after minimal use...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

simplest & most common setup for circ involves moving hot water into cold water line which i dont like the idea of putting tanked water into drinking water source.

It doesn't exactly thrill me either, although I've never seen ANY real evidence that DHW from a modern system is any less safe than the same water from the cold water tap... However most of the setups I've seen sketched put the hot water return connection right next to the cold inlet of the heater tank. Since the recirculator pump just pushes hot water from the tank into the matching cold water line, the water in that line is going to go back into the tank simply because it's the easiest flow path...

Thus the "stale" hot water is mostly just going to either get recycled back into the tank to be re-heated, or it will get flushed back out of the cold water line by the cold drawn as part of the mix by the fixture... While I'm sure it is possible to end up w/ "stale" water out the cold tap, it seems to me like it's a relatively unlikely occurence, and I don't see that it will do a lot of harm if it does happen...

Gooserider

 

[Gooserider]

without a second pipe the simplest install involves such as the pump hooked from cold to hot under a kitchen sink. considering legionaire's & lo tank temps to save...
a 2 pipe feed to point of use will result in a thermal loop which acts like weak pump but uses energy & loses heat from surface area of 2nd pipe + a heat blocking pipe with ball gizmo cant be installed at tank.WHAT IS GIZMO CALLED?

The gizmo is a heat trap... And regardless of where the pump is, the flow is going to be from the tank via the hot line, back to the tank via the cold line - in order for the water to move, it has to go someplace, and the tank is the only place that is getting emptied by the pump. As soon as the water gets turned on, water from the source is going to flush any common parts of the line as it fills the tank, and push the 'stale' water back out the cold line if any cold is in the mix...

According to what I've read on legionares, it is not a problem w/ properly chlorinated municipal water, or well water (where is it going to come from?) In order to grow, it needs water that is sitting at the right temperatures for extended periods, and that isn't being constantly changed by useage - i.e. it might grow in your hydronic storage tank, but not in your hot water tank...

Gooserider

 

[jqgs214]

Hinge the door on the other side so it opens on the shower head side? Pictures would help.

 

[velvetfoot]

Here is our setup. I don't have much problem.
What struck me is that if there's a problem with the faucet, there's no way to easily get back there, as far as I can see.

 

[pybyr]

Here is our setup. I don't have much problem.
What struck me is that if there's a problem with the faucet, there's no way to easily get back there, as far as I can see.

That photo from Velvetfoot looks precisely like the shower/ door arrangement that I have- and my showerhead and door swing are exactly the same - but for some reason, the showerhead in mine sprays out the door unless you're awfully careful to both make sure that the showerhead is pointed way to the right side, and that the flow is not turned on full or fast.

[PS, regarding the valve/ Velvetfoot's question on servicing it, at least on mine, you can get to all of the valve's guts easily by pulling the control handle and face plate]

 

[Gooserider]

Here is our setup. I don't have much problem.
What struck me is that if there's a problem with the faucet, there's no way to easily get back there, as far as I can see.

What is on the other side of the shower wall? In many cases it is a closet, and the access is by cutting a hole in the closet wall (I just screw the sheetrock peice back into place, if you want to get fancy you can try putting some trim around it... In our upstairs shower, it's part of the bathroom wall in front of the throne, same deal, the hole just shows a bit more...

Gooserider

 

[pybyr]

Here is our setup. I don't have much problem.
What struck me is that if there's a problem with the faucet, there's no way to easily get back there, as far as I can see.

What is on the other side of the shower wall? In many cases it is a closet, and the access is by cutting a hole in the closet wall (I just screw the sheetrock peice back into place, if you want to get fancy you can try putting some trim around it... In our upstairs shower, it's part of the bathroom wall in front of the throne, same deal, the hole just shows a bit more...

Gooserider

At least in mine, if you pull the handle and remove the approximately 8 inch metal trim piece around it, you can get to any of the valving/ fittings you might need to. No need to cut or remove anything. I checked that before ordering or installing any of it, as I try to plan things to be servicable when the need arises. This may vary with other units, however, many modern shower fixtures (for several decades) have some form of cartridge that can be accessed and serviced/ replaced from the front.

 

[Gooserider]

Here is our setup. I don't have much problem.
What struck me is that if there's a problem with the faucet, there's no way to easily get back there, as far as I can see.

What is on the other side of the shower wall? In many cases it is a closet, and the access is by cutting a hole in the closet wall (I just screw the sheetrock peice back into place, if you want to get fancy you can try putting some trim around it... In our upstairs shower, it's part of the bathroom wall in front of the throne, same deal, the hole just shows a bit more...

Gooserider

At least in mine, if you pull the handle and remove the approximately 8 inch metal trim piece around it, you can get to any of the valving/ fittings you might need to. No need to cut or remove anything. I checked that before ordering or installing any of it, as I try to plan things to be servicable when the need arises. This may vary with other units, however, many modern shower fixtures (for several decades) have some form of cartridge that can be accessed and serviced/ replaced from the front.

Same deal with the Symmons valves in our tub and shower - in theory... However we have had to replace both valves completely which requires access from the back to get the body out... Our plumber tells us that this is not common, but in each case where he changed our valve there was a definite issue with corrosion or other deposits clogging things up to the point where he had to take the old unit out completely - at which point it was just as easy to put in a new one rather than trying to clean the old one. This is especially the case since he says that his supplier charges MORE for the complete rebuild kit than he does for the valve :wow: so he buys the valve, and strips it - this also lets him replace all the trim as part of the job.

Another factor is where the service shutoffs are - and if they work or need replacing... Since we have owned the house, it seems we are in a slow process of replacing all the service shutoffs w/ ball valves each time we need to get one of the faucets serviced...

Gooserider