Cost efective storage, New Econoburn on the way!

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4hiswork

Member
Apr 4, 2010
25
Western Kentucky
I have been hanging around for a while, thanks for the tip on the cheap econoburn on Ebay. I have a lot to do, I am a chemical operator by trade, work in Research and Develoment for a mid size chemical company. I am able to purchase very cheap plastic totes, surrounded by metal, about 325 gallons each or one aluminum tote that would hold about 600 to 700 gallons of water. Not able to pressure either one of these, but hoping for ideas on the best way to set up my system. Did I mention I still have to build the pole barn, run the pex...what size, type...this is going to be fun! I really am enjoying researching your posts. Thanks
 
Welcome, you are starting out with a great boiler! I only know a little about pressure tanks so I can't help you there. Did you get the 100 or 150? Keep us informed, Randy
 
Be sure to check the temperature rating on the plastic, it might be as low as 120F before it softens, and not a lot higher before something worse might happen. There is high temperature poly, but I don't think even that would be recommended for constant 180F water.
 
I believe they make polypropylene tanks that can withstand 200+ F but very expensive...
 
I also just bought an Econoburn and am working out the details of thermal storage for my planned summer installation. After a lot of research and reading, the two solutions I see if you're trying to control costs are either a used propane tank for pressurized storage, or go to unpressurized storage with a heat exchanger. It can be hard to source a used propane tank inexpensively that is in decent shape and you face the de-scenting issue and likely some welding with the attendant risk of explosion (lots of posts on both of these topics here already). Beyond the pressurized tank costs are the expansion tank costs for that loop with a lot of water in it.

For unpressurized, the heat exchanger can be costly. At this point I'm leaning toward unpressurized storage based on the design on this website: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/SizingTank.htm. Good luck making your decision!

-David H.
 
I too just bought an econburn (150) through ebay (from aquatherm in MN) . I am confronting the same issue - to use pressurized storage or unpressurized. I will install the boiler in an outbuilding so will need to run a glycol mix to a heat exchanger to heat the storage and pressurized heating system. With a homemade tank the unpressurized system seems very attractive. Looks like your install is also in an outbuilding. However, where would the storage be located?
 
My Econoburn 150 is going in a 30x 50 barn where I keep my collector cars, so I have to build a boiler room. I plan to put the heavily insulated thermal storage in the insulated boiler room. I plan to run my "overheat dump zone" outside of the boiler room in the unheated barn via a sidearm exchanger with glycol in that loop.
 
Horrocksd,

Are you planning to use glycol in the storage tank or will it never be exposed to freezing temperatures? The idea of outside storage is attractive to me except for the expectation that 100s of gallons of glycol is costly at $ 5-9 gallon (based on automotive antifreeze).
 
4hiswork said:
I have been hanging around for a while, thanks for the tip on the cheap econoburn on Ebay. I have a lot to do, I am a chemical operator by trade, work in Research and Develoment for a mid size chemical company. I am able to purchase very cheap plastic totes, surrounded by metal, about 325 gallons each or one aluminum tote that would hold about 600 to 700 gallons of water. Not able to pressure either one of these, but hoping for ideas on the best way to set up my system. Did I mention I still have to build the pole barn, run the pex...what size, type...this is going to be fun! I really am enjoying researching your posts. Thanks

Best wishes with the Econoburn- I have been pleased with mine.

I'd looked into the plastic totes, but the only ones I located were polyethylene, and definitely not up to sustained temps near 200F, even unpressurized; I did locate some used stainless totes, but they were too far away to be feasible for what the price was. If you find a solution, please share; the more options we can get "out there" for affordable and simple DIY storage, the better.
 
heat4steve,

Boiler glycol for my planned storage at $15/gal. would cost $5,000. Since I plan to put a lot of insulation in and around the storage, plus the fact that it will be in an insulated boiler room in my barn I figure it could go a week in the coldest temps without freeze-up problems. If something catastrophic made me unable to use the boiler I'd just drain the storage tank. It's a risk I'm willing to take given the economics of the situation. The only glycol I plan to have is in the dump loop which will be in the barn outside of the boiler room and therefore in an unheated area.

If anyone out there thinks I'm off-base, please feel free to speak-up while I'm still in the planning stage. I appreciate all the info and feedback from the forum members.

-David H.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies... Some awesome thoughts so far. The model I bought is the 100 based on the BTU needs of my home, just came in this past Friday, once I got it home we had a little trouble getting it into its temporary storage barn, that thing is heavy!
The plastic totes I got from work were cheap, we normally put a liquid in it at about 200f but as you guys have stated it may not handle the heat and cooling cycles very well. My other cheap option is an old iodine tote, (aluminium) I would have to fab up the bottom outlet and make a new lid for it...was also planning on putting my storage in the barn with the Econoburn, I do have room in the basement, just was not sure that was the best place. The barn is still under discussion here at home, my wife wants me to try to heat the pool, if I do that I need to put the barn near it, not really sure that is the best spot, but either way as of right now I am only looking at about 50 feet from the house. Again thanks for all the replies and I look forward to your thoughts. I could try to get pictures of the 2 types of totes and post them for you guys...
 
horrocksd said:
I also just bought an Econoburn and am working out the details of thermal storage for my planned summer installation. After a lot of research and reading, the two solutions I see if you're trying to control costs are either a used propane tank for pressurized storage, or go to unpressurized storage with a heat exchanger. It can be hard to source a used propane tank inexpensively that is in decent shape and you face the de-scenting issue and likely some welding with the attendant risk of explosion (lots of posts on both of these topics here already). Beyond the pressurized tank costs are the expansion tank costs for that loop with a lot of water in it.

For unpressurized, the heat exchanger can be costly. At this point I'm leaning toward unpressurized storage based on the design on this website: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/SizingTank.htm. Good luck making your decision!

-David H.



Great link, and good luck to you as you build your system, let us know how it is going and what you learn along the way!
 
My vote would be to put your thermal storage in the basement. I believe this to be the most efficient method if space allows.
 
My vote would be to put your thermal storage in the basement. If space allows this is a nice set up, especially if you plan to use for domestic hot water production. Enjoy
 
I've been hatching a plan with my son in law to build a permanent 1000gl +/- storage tank using insulated concrete forms with a removable foam lid. (he may have a 600gl STSS tank for sale in the near future) We are still researching methods and materials for lining the tank. If you are going to use coils of copper tube for the HX buy them sooner rather than later as copper prices are going through the roof as we speak.
 
heaterman said:
I've been hatching a plan with my son in law to build a permanent 1000gl +/- storage tank using insulated concrete forms with a removable foam lid. (he may have a 600gl STSS tank for sale in the near future) We are still researching methods and materials for lining the tank. If you are going to use coils of copper tube for the HX buy them sooner rather than later as copper prices are going through the roof as we speak.


I was wondering how much copper coil do you use with indirect storage?? I am sure there is a certain ratio... so much per gallon. Anyone? BTW insulated concrete makes a great basement, (that is how I built mine) the company I used to get the forms quit selling them... great product!
 
4hiswork

My boiler comes tomorrow. I have lift gate service and I am hoping the delivery men will push the boiler into the entrance of my barn (maybe 10 or 20 dollars will help). However in case this does not happen, could you share how you move your boiler. Thanks.
 
heat4steve said:
4hiswork

My boiler comes tomorrow. I have lift gate service and I am hoping the delivery men will push the boiler into the entrance of my barn (maybe 10 or 20 dollars will help). However in case this does not happen, could you share how you move your boiler. Thanks.


I cut away the plastic on just the very top of the unit, up there you will find a square plate with 4 screws, take those out, remove the plate and you will see a lifting hook conveniently right there. I had a tractor with a front end loader and some chain, still a big job, the heater wanted to swing and we were not able to get directly over the unit at first.

If they have a fork lift when they unload that thing a bribe would be well worth it, cash is great, and food always works with me. :)
 
heat4steve,

How did you make out on your boiler delivery? I had my Econoburn 150 delivered to the warehouse where I work, then had it loaded from our loading dock onto a rollback car hauler that tied it down real well and transported it to my home. I opened my barn doors, loosened the tie downs on the rollback, tied a chain to the pallet, and with my hydrostatic tractor I very slooooowly slid it off the back of the rollback that was angled right into the barn doorway. Next day a friend borrowed a pallet jack and we moved it 50' across my concrete barn floor to where it's going to be installed.

Now i just have to get it off the pallet. I figure I'll stack a few bricks and 2 x 4s and small plywood cuts as shims under the pallet, right under where the boiler is bolted to it (I'll remove the bolts first! ). Then I'll cut the "overhang" on the sides of the pallet where it's wider than the boiler, remove that wood, and then I think I can get my shop crane legs around the boiler on the cut down pallet and hopefully lift it with the shop crane, then pull the remaining bits of the pallet out from underneath and then let the boiler down onto the floor. My shop crane says it will lift 2400 lbs--i hope that's for more than 1-2 seconds. : > ) We'll see how it goes.

-David H.
 
horrocksd said:
heat4steve,

How did you make out on your boiler delivery? I had my Econoburn 150 delivered to the warehouse where I work, then had it loaded from our loading dock onto a rollback car hauler that tied it down real well and transported it to my home. I opened my barn doors, loosened the tie downs on the rollback, tied a chain to the pallet, and with my hydrostatic tractor I very slooooowly slid it off the back of the rollback that was angled right into the barn doorway. Next day a friend borrowed a pallet jack and we moved it 50' across my concrete barn floor to where it's going to be installed.

Now i just have to get it off the pallet. I figure I'll stack a few bricks and 2 x 4s and small plywood cuts as shims under the pallet, right under where the boiler is bolted to it (I'll remove the bolts first! ). Then I'll cut the "overhang" on the sides of the pallet where it's wider than the boiler, remove that wood, and then I think I can get my shop crane legs around the boiler on the cut down pallet and hopefully lift it with the shop crane, then pull the remaining bits of the pallet out from underneath and then let the boiler down onto the floor. My shop crane says it will lift 2400 lbs--i hope that's for more than 1-2 seconds. : > ) We'll see how it goes.

-David H.

The boiler was delivered without a problem. The delivery man used a pallet jack and I helped push all 1600 lbs into the barn. My challenge will be to move the boiler to a lower level in the building which will require laying or tilting the boiler to get through an opening. I feel confident something can be figured out and it most likely will require some machine assitance. You look like your in good shape with your crane.

My next purchases are:

Wood (Ordered a Load of Logs from Dansville Logging and want to begin splitting soon)
Thermal Storage (Looking for 250-350 gallon upright propane tanks)
O2 Barrier PEX tubing (Not sure if I will atemp to insualte my self or just buy it)
Heat Exchanger (I want a plate type brazed stainless unit if reasonable)
Double Vent (Not Sure How much height is needed - The DEC information on OWB seems to matter here)

I want to have everything going by September. How about you?
 
heat4steve said:
horrocksd said:
heat4steve,

How did you make out on your boiler delivery? I had my Econoburn 150 delivered to the warehouse where I work, then had it loaded from our loading dock onto a rollback car hauler that tied it down real well and transported it to my home. I opened my barn doors, loosened the tie downs on the rollback, tied a chain to the pallet, and with my hydrostatic tractor I very slooooowly slid it off the back of the rollback that was angled right into the barn doorway. Next day a friend borrowed a pallet jack and we moved it 50' across my concrete barn floor to where it's going to be installed.

Now i just have to get it off the pallet. I figure I'll stack a few bricks and 2 x 4s and small plywood cuts as shims under the pallet, right under where the boiler is bolted to it (I'll remove the bolts first! ). Then I'll cut the "overhang" on the sides of the pallet where it's wider than the boiler, remove that wood, and then I think I can get my shop crane legs around the boiler on the cut down pallet and hopefully lift it with the shop crane, then pull the remaining bits of the pallet out from underneath and then let the boiler down onto the floor. My shop crane says it will lift 2400 lbs--i hope that's for more than 1-2 seconds. : > ) We'll see how it goes.

-David H.

The boiler was delivered without a problem. The delivery man used a pallet jack and I helped push all 1600 lbs into the barn. My challenge will be to move the boiler to a lower level in the building which will require laying or tilting the boiler to get through an opening. I feel confident something can be figured out and it most likely will require some machine assitance. You look like your in good shape with your crane.

My next purchases are:

Wood (Ordered a Load of Logs from Dansville Logging and want to begin splitting soon)
Thermal Storage (Looking for 250-350 gallon upright propane tanks)
O2 Barrier PEX tubing (Not sure if I will atemp to insualte my self or just buy it)
Heat Exchanger (I want a plate type brazed stainless unit if reasonable)
Double Vent (Not Sure How much height is needed - The DEC information on OWB seems to matter here)

I want to have everything going by September. How about you?



You guys post some pictures if you can...I still need to build my barn!
 
4hiswork,

Thanks for the interest. I will post pictures as my installation progresses. I expect it will take some time to get everything operating - hopefully I can check everyting out by September. Since I live in NY state I must consider the proposed state regulations posted on this site for outdoor boilers (even though mine will be in a barn).

Have you decided on what to use for storage? I am having a difficult time finding used propane tanks around here and may have to build an unpressurized system.

Regards
 
heat4steve said:
4hiswork,

I am having a difficult time finding used propane tanks around here and may have to build an unpressurized system.

Regards

With all of the industrial (or former industrial) facilities around Rochester/ Buffalo/ Niagara, what about looking for some sort of used vessel from a manufacturing plant?
 
heat4steve said:
pybyr,

I will look into your suggestion. Thank you. Are you making your own stainless tank?

Long story short, since I have an old cellar with limited clearances, I couldn't fit a propane or other large one-piece tank in, so have created a panel-ized stainless bolt-flanged tank. I've got to finalize some control systems that will include differential for charging and boiler temp return control when the tank is not up to temp. I have no serious regrets about the path I've taken, as the options made sense when I had to make the decisions that I needed to make. If I'd known about the American Solartechnics 820 gallon unpressurized tank at the point that I had to make a decision, that might have been an easier path, but it was not yet anything I'd found out about.
 
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