Cracked stoves, cracked blocks, and cracked operators

[begreen]

firebroad, the stove is not even broken in until it gets over 500F for a while. I would do this soon and open some windows. You should have no qualms about running this stove all day long at normal operating temps of 600-650F.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Rather than whine about the lack of warranty coverage, we must avoid stoves and brands with a known history of defects. This can ruin a company.VC ring a bell?

I thank the gods every day for that ruined brand. $700 for 5.5 cu ft of fireboxes is a hell of a deal.

 

[BrotherBart]

They need to build something into their wood stoves like what comes in the turkeys at the grocery store. Over fire it and the button pops up. Maybe a flag pops out "Warranty Void".

 

[BrowningBAR]

They need to build something into their wood stoves like what comes in the turkeys at the grocery store. Over fire it and the button pops up. Maybe a flag pops out "Warranty Void".

Every stove would misfire just to void the warranty.

 

[granpajohn]

...Maybe a flag pops out "Warranty Void".

Heh....BB could've been a Madison Ave man, back in the day.

edit: (that's an advertizing agent.)

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Agree with the other posters about the manual should have a "not to exceed" temp on it: Here is what my Lopi says:


Over-Firing the Stove
This stove was designed to operate at a high temperature. But due to differences in vent configuration,
fuel, and draft, this appliance can be operated at an excessive temperature. If the stove top or other area
starts to glow red, you are over-firing the stove. Shut the air control down to low and allow the stove to
cool before proceeding.
Over-firing may lead to damage of plated surfaces. If you are uncertain of over-firing conditions, we
suggest placing a stove thermometer (e.g. Rutland® Model 710) directly over the door on the stove top -
temperatures exceeding 800° are generally considered over-firing and will void the warranty.

 

[begreen]

Secondly, if I was at fault (ie. operator abuse), I would have liked PE or their affiliates to confirm this; and then advise me how to operate my stove properly. In my defence, my dealership stated that my stove operation was normal, when I originally asked them operating questions (eg. should my baffle sometimes glow). The only time overfiring was suggested was with PE over the phone, during the beginning of the warranty process. At the time PE had not seen insert, other than the photos of the cracked welds. The dealership employee who actually saw my insert in person stated that In his opinion it did not look like it had been overfired. The original welder stated that original firebox welds "looked shoddy" and didn't have enough penetration. He also stated that repairs would be futile, which they turned out to be.

The problem here is that the dealer is not in your basement looking at the stove. He is taking your observations as correct. The red flag for me was when you posted that not only was the baffle glowing red, but the side rails too. One can only guess how often this occurred and to what degree or worse.

Unfortunately this was prior to your joining the forum. I can appreciated the difficulty in getting answers. FWIW, this is one of the danger I see with an unattended stove running out of sight in the basement. If the basement is uninsulated and the stove is being pushed hard in order to try to heat the upstairs, overfiring in most any stove seems to be inevitable during colder weather. for monitoring and peace of mind I would add a remote probe in this circumstance.

 

[Sisu]

The problem here is that the dealer is not in your basement looking at the stove. He is taking your observations as correct. The red flag for me was when you posted that not only was the baffle glowing red, but the side rails too. One can only guess how often this occurred and to what degree or worse.

Unfortunately this was prior to your joining the forum. I can appreciated the difficulty in getting answers. FWIW, this is one of the danger I see with an unattended stove running out of sight in the basement. If the basement is uninsulated and the stove is being pushed hard in order to try to heat the upstairs, overfiring in most any stove seems to be inevitable during colder weather. for monitoring and peace of mind I would add a remote probe in this circumstance.

I can understand, after all they are just doing their job. As for the location, the stove is in the basement den. It is a finished insulated basement of a 1960s brick clad bungalow. The house has been updated, in regard to efficiencies (attic insulation, double pane windows, etc.), but is not perfect. The den is well used, so the stove is only out of sight during sleep and work. The other issue would be the lack of stove control, if it was overfiring, since it was in sight most of the time.

Ideally, what I would have appreciated, is that PE would have contacted me after the firebox was removed (during repair or after replacement) to say that they have looked at the firebox and it either a.) looks like it was overfired; or b.) it does not look like it was overfired. If it were a.), then I would have liked PE to assist in troubleshooting (eg. too much draft) and suggest some ways to operate the stove properly. I am not a newbie when it comes to wood burning, but this was my first EPA rated stove.

 

[dorkweed]

I've never seen an insert in person before. Seems to me from the posts here, that much of the parts are hidden from view by the decorative surround. Is that correct??? It'd also seem that the insert inserted into a fireplace (I know they have blowers) concentrates heat more than a freestanding stove, is that correct??? Seems to me that inserts need more supervision in some regards than do free standing stoves when is comes to temps because of the not visible parts.

Great thread.

 

[BrowningBAR]

I've never seen an insert in person before. Seems to me from the posts here, that much of the parts are hidden from view by the decorative surround. Is that correct??? It'd also seem that the insert inserted into a fireplace (I know they have blowers) concentrates heat more than a freestanding stove, is that correct??? Seems to me that inserts need more supervision in some regards than do free standing stoves when is comes to temps because of the not visible parts.

Great thread.

You made several points that are correct to a certain degree.

But, the bigger issue is why is there are only reports of the PE Summit Insert cracking and not other PE inserts? Also, there or tons of other inserts from other manufacturers that posters here own, rarely do we see posts about cracked fireboxes from other inserts. And when we do, it is rare.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Just got some input from a "deep throat" contact, and it turns out I was more than a little naive about PE's sales numbers. I was correct in saying cracked stoves comprise a fraction of 1% of units sold (not 1%, Sisu), but I didn't realize how small that fraction is. It is less than 1/100th of 1%. Mathematically, that's < 0.0001.

I wonder how many manufacturers of any product, faced with so few complaints, most of them coming from people who have abused the product in question, would simply do nothing about it? PE chose to re-design their entire product line (at no small expense) to make their stoves even more bulletproof than they already were. They made changes in their owner's manuals in an effort to teach the consumer to avoid overfiring. For those customers who refused to hear or accept that the cracks are only cosmetic in nature, they offered to pay to have the affected stoves welded up. I consider this response to be heroic.

 

[bag of hammers]

1 of my top 3 picks when shopping @ 5 years back was a PE. Always considered this to be a likely candidate if / when I replace the Osburn based on the looks (beautiful) and what seemed to be a reasonable claim to long burn times (for an EPA stove). Not like I would swap out soon, but a bit nervous now about the brand.

Aside (sort of related) - is there a general rule of thumb for stove top temps vs flue (probe) temps? My flue temp gauge shows 850 as the top end of the "safe" range. I don't have a stove top gauge on the Osburn - not sure it would be of much value with the top plate / trivet covering the top of the stove?

Great thread....

 

[Slow1]

Just got some input from a "deep throat" contact, and it turns out I was more than a little naive about PE's sales numbers. I was correct in saying cracked stoves comprise a fraction of 1% of units sold (not 1%, Sisu), but I didn't realize how small that fraction is. It is less than 1/100th of 1%. Mathematically, that's < 0.0001.

I wonder how many manufacturers of any product, faced with so few complaints, most of them coming from people who have abused the product in question, would simply do nothing about it? PE chose to re-design their entire product line (at no small expense) to make their stoves even more bulletproof than they already were. They made changes in their owner's manuals in an effort to teach the consumer to avoid overfiring. For those customers who refused to hear or accept that the cracks are only cosmetic in nature, they offered to pay to have the affected stoves welded up. I consider this response to be heroic.

I'd have to agree based on the data that you are presenting here. However, having worked in customer facing positions for much of my career I can pretty much guarantee that you cannot please everyone and there will always be some that will not be satisfied. As you pointed out in another post - it seems to go against human nature to admit the possibility of having contributed to a failure (even unintentionally).

I recall being told once that some customers simply are not worth the cost to retain - however in today's world of internet communications the effect that a very small minority can have on reputations, companies can't ignore them either. A very difficult position to be in I'm sure. Impressions sometimes are more of a reality to people than facts - however irrational it may be.

Good discussion here. I wonder what the 'take away' is though. It seems that your point of view is that PE has done a good job of addressing the issue and that it is largely in the hands of the consumers. Reading through the thread it seems they might be able to improve their messaging a bit even though it is to address a tiny fraction of their customer base. At least if the numbers are as small as presented above it shouldn't (on average) be too costly to do some 1:1 hand holding to quell the noise and perhaps turn these folks into vocal supporters (they are already proving to be vocal).

 

[BrotherBart]

I'm closing this one folks. Pretty much what needs to be said has been said.