Dealer installing Clydesdale next week- how can I ensure a perfect install?

[LamoilleVT]

Hi- this is my first post to this forum (or any forum for that matter). My family lives in northern Vermont in a leaky '80s era condo with a fireplace. With the temps regularly hitting -10 F in the mornings, we are tightening the building envelope & buying an insert for the fireplace. This forum has been one of my main sources of unbiased information in determining which model to buy; I'm very appreciative of the frequent contributors to the site. I've put in a deposit on a Hearthstone Clydesdale- it is scheduled to be installed next Thursday & I'll be there for it.

I visited Hearthstone's production side (less than 10 miles from our home) and the head of marketing there suggested our local dealer for the installation. I have confidence that the dealer knows what they are doing, but I also aware that the dealer is somewhat incentivized to do what is expedient and not what may be best (there is a set installation fee, regardless of the time required at installation). I'd love to get your ideas for a checklist of what I should do to ensure the installation is as good as the insert itself. I've searched through these forums for thoughts on installation and have picked up bits & pieces in various threads.

A few specific questions:
- the dealer wants to use flexible liner the whole way (around 22' from insert to top of chimney). I believe that Hogwildz and others has suggested using rigid liner with a few feet of flex at the bottom to get around the damper area- should I push fairly hard for that? The dealer seemed resistant.
- when I said I wanted an insulated liner, the dealer proposed putting a $300 blanket around it (would this most likely be Roxul?). Should I push for a pre-insulated pipe, if it is superior to just taping a blanket onto it?
- does the brand of the liner matter much? If so, which brand should I prefer?
- should I make sure the dealer installs a flue thermometer? Or would an exterior thermometer be OK for our insert?
- what should I make sure to look for when the block-off plate is installed?
- is there anything else I should look for on the unit itself? knockouts, etc?
- should I do the dollar bill test and have the installers adjust the washers, etc if needed?

Anything else I should be asking? Thanks in advance for your advice

 

[webby3650]

There Is no need for rigid liner. Flex from top to bottom is just fine, it's the most common way to do it. You do want it insulated. It does not need to be preinsulated, the blanket is fine. It's not just taped on. Its a ceramic wool blanket attached to aluminum foil. It gets taped on, then there is a stainless steel mesh that gets stretched over the entire liner. This keeps everything nice and tight and also prevents the insulation from being damaged. Our liners are priced with insulation, I don't know why so many dealers resist installing with insulation.

The brand of liner doesn't matter much, they all are tested to the same standards. The dealer will have a brand that they use pretty exclusively, so not too option for you there.

You won't have a flue thermometer on an insert, just stovetop.

The door will be very tight when it's new, shouldn't need any adjustment.

 

[bholler]

We pretty much never install rigid anymore. May by one every 2 years we always use heavy flex. And the only reason to use preinsulated is that it is a little easier but generally costs more and no it will not be roxul it will be ul listed chimney liner insulation. It is usually ceramic wool 1/2" thick

 

[LamoilleVT]

Excellent- thank you for your help

 

[Grisu]

- what should I make sure to look for when the block-off plate is installed?

Have them first put Roxul in and then the block-off plate underneath. Bending the edges of the hole will ensure that the liner does not get scratched from the plate. One circle of door rope gasket between the plate and the liner will make it completely airtight. Maybe think about getting some Roxul from Lowes yourself. Quite a few installer just use fiberglass. Stuffing some Roxul below the top plate at the top of the liner may further reduce any heat loss.
If the fireplace is large enough and at an exterior wall think about insulating around the insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/ For an interior fireplace the block-off plate will be enough.

- should I make sure the dealer installs a flue thermometer? Or would an exterior thermometer be OK for our insert?

Flue thermometer is not that easy with an insert. I would rather get an IR thermometer and look for the hottest spot on the front to get an idea about the insert's temps.

- should I do the dollar bill test and have the installers adjust the washers, etc if needed?

Usually I would say that the gasket and door will need some time to settle in and I would at least do the break-in fires before doing any adjustments. However, the manual states to do the dollar bill test right away. Maybe check it together with the installer.

The Clydesdale can be installed with variable depth. The more it protrudes out from the fireplace the more radiant heat you will get but the deeper your hearth needs to be. Think about how you want to have it. Do you know already where to plug in the blower cable and how to route it? Which direction do you want the door to open?

Does your hearth have a r-value of 1?

How is your wood supply? Is it below 20% internal moisture? Do you have your tools such as coal rake, shovel, broom, firestarters+kindling, welding gloves, IR thermometer, ash bucket with tightly closing lid, smoke and CO detectors, fire extinguisher, possibly poles and brush or sooteater for sweeping?

 

[nyny]

you live in the usa in the 21st century. don't expect perfect. acceptable is as good as it gets

 

[webby3650]

you live in the usa in the 21st century. don't expect perfect. acceptable is as good as it gets

This is so far from the truth! The are many good craftsmen in this country. It's sad that you feel this way.

 

[LamoilleVT]

Grisu-

This is great info- thank you!

The Clydesdale can be installed with variable depth. The more it protrudes out from the fireplace the more radiant heat you will get but the deeper your hearth needs to be. Think about how you want to have it. Do you know already where to plug in the blower cable and how to route it? Which direction do you want the door to open?

We have a high but shallow hearth that sounds typical in New England. The insert will protrude more than normal- probably good for heat dissipation but it will require us to extend the hearth protection. The Clydesdale manual says 13" to 17" inches of the stove needs to be behind the faceplate; in our case, it will likely be 14" or 15". Our hearth is 11" deep and 9" off the ground, so we will need to extend the hearth protection. We are redoing the floors across the condo in April/May and hope to install better looking tiles in front of the insert over heat protective backder- this should be a better looking/more permanent solution, but we will likely get a cheap hearth extension in the meantime.
The blower cable will be to the left- there's a receptacle less than 36" away.

Does your hearth have a r-value of 1?
How is your wood supply? Is it below 20% internal moisture? Do you have your tools such as coal rake, shovel, broom, firestarters+kindling, welding gloves, IR thermometer, ash bucket with tightly closing lid, smoke and CO detectors, fire extinguisher, possibly poles and brush or sooteater for sweeping?

Great point on hearth R value. I knew I had to extend our hearth protection further into the room as the insert will protrude away from the wall, but now I wonder if we don't need to beef up the existing ledge of hearth as well. We are in a ski condo, and the hearth was most likely meant to just be used on the occasional weekend fire and for moderate temperatures (as a fireplace, not a wood stove/insert). We plan on having the fire going 24/7 with an insert, so we may be taxing it beyond what it was designed for. The visible part of the existing hearth is 2" of bluestone; I'm not sure what is beneath it (this being a 30+ year old condo, the documentation is long gone). Would you recommend elevating the woodstove an inch or two and inserting some more protection? Looking at this thread (https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/thinest-hearth-pad-possible-for-r-1-2.53077/), it sounds as if I could create some protection that looks decent by building up something from 1/2" of micor, then durock, then thinset, then some tile- would that be the way you would do it? The extra inch or two of height would be OK (easier to load the fire and to look at from the couch) but we'd also like to keep the solution looking good as the insert will be at the heart of the living room/play area for the kids. Any suggestions you have on how to preserve good aesthetics while getting the necessary protection would be appreciated.
On protection, we have a wood mantle that protrudes 9" from the wall and would be 16" above the top of the insert's surround, but over 18" from the top of the unit. The insert's manual suggests 27" clearance to the mantle (is the US regulations 18" and they are using an abundance of caution?), or 11" with a mantle shield in place. If you recommend the mantle shield, any suggestions on good-looking solutions would be appreciated.

The condo supplies the wood. They say it is hardwood, and they season it for 12 months (sits on property drying since previous winter). I've ordered a moisture reader and will let you know what I find when it arrives.

As for the accessories- we have an old rake/shovel/broom set and a bucket that came with the condo when we bought it. We'll use these for the first few fires & will likely upgrade once I know what kind of tools would work best with the insert. I've ordered gloves. I don't have kindling; I was thinking, after seeing this video (), that I'd get a heavy axe and make some from our supplied wood (or are there better methods?). I'll sheepishly admit to having Duraflame for starting. I'm paranoid with CO, so we've got 6 detectors in the 3 story unit (on each floor there is a CO detector plugged into a receptacle and a separate ceiling-mounted smoke/CO combo detector). We've got a few fire extinguishers- I'll move one to the hearth. The condo mandates that each unit get a professional chimney sweep each year- would it be good to supplement with sooteater?

Flue thermometer is not that easy with an insert. I would rather get an IR thermometer and look for the hottest spot on the front to get an idea about the insert's temps.

Sounds good- I'll get an IR thermometer then

Have them first put Roxul in and then the block-off plate underneath. Bending the edges of the hole will ensure that the liner does not get scratched from the plate. One circle of door rope gasket between the plate and the liner will make it completely airtight. Maybe think about getting some Roxul from Lowes yourself. Quite a few installer just use fiberglass. Stuffing some Roxul below the top plate at the top of the liner may further reduce any heat loss.
If the fireplace is large enough and at an exterior wall think about insulating around the insert: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/finally-got-around-to-insulating-my-fireplace.75755/ For an interior fireplace the block-off plate will be enough.

Excellent beta. I can make a run to Lowes in South Burlington this week. It appears that there are different densities of Roxul (COMFORTBATT and SAFE‘n’SOUND) - which would you recommend, and how much should I get?

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Grisu]

We are redoing the floors across the condo in April/May and hope to install better looking tiles in front of the insert over heat protective backder- this should be a better looking/more permanent solution, but we will likely get a cheap hearth extension in the meantime.

Search for "stove board" for a relatively cheap interim solution. With the insert elevated by 9" you may not need any r-value down on the floor. Check with Hearthstone. What is underneath the floor with the fireplace? A basement or just slab?

On protection, we have a wood mantle that protrudes 9" from the wall and would be 16" above the top of the insert's surround, but over 18" from the top of the unit. The insert's manual suggests 27" clearance to the mantle (is the US regulations 18" and they are using an abundance of caution?), or 11" with a mantle shield in place. If you recommend the mantle shield, any suggestions on good-looking solutions would be appreciated.

Those are not recommendations but minimum requirements. With other words, you will need a mantel heat shield before even burning in the insert. A copper heat shield under the mantel may look ok. A pic of your fireplace would help.

that I'd get a heavy axe and make some from our supplied wood (or are there better methods?). I'll sheepishly admit to having Duraflame for starting.

I do the old fashioned newspaper and kindling but many members here like the Supercedars: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/super-cedars-im-sold.134623/ The new discount code is probably "hearth15".

We've got a few fire extinguishers- I'll move one to the hearth

Sounds like you are all prepared in terms of fire safety. However, I would not put a pressurized device anywhere close to a stove. Not to mention that if a fire happens it may not be accessible in that location anymore. I have my extinguisher in a closet around the corner.

The condo mandates that each unit get a professional chimney sweep each year- would it be good to supplement with sooteater?

Understandable rule with so many lives at stake. Going through the chimney once or twice in your first winter with the sooteater is still not a bad idea until you know how clean you are burning. How dry is your wood? Where will you actually stack it in a condo complex to have dry wood for the future? Picking up a moisture meter would also be a good idea so you can check your wood.

 

[brad wilton]

safe and sound is the better product for flame and heat

 

[bholler]

safe and sound is the better product for flame and heat

Better than what? Just curious

 

[bholler]

you live in the usa in the 21st century. don't expect perfect. acceptable is as good as it gets

I am sorry but just because you cant find good contractors does not mean they are not out there. I know many in many different fields that get as close to perfect as possible. And i would challenge you to find any problems with our installs.

 

[CI-Borg]

I didn't follow some of the previous responses completely so sorry if what i suggest has been discussed while talking about insulation. If the chimney is exterior, and you have the room, put some roxul insulation around the sides and back. Face it with metal or durock to hold in place to reduce heat loss to the exterior. Not sure if the dealer would do that for the flat fee but easy enough to do yourself beforehand.

 

[bholler]

I didn't follow some of the previous responses completely so sorry if what i suggest has been discussed while talking about insulation. If the chimney is exterior, and you have the room, put some roxul insulation around the sides and back. Face it with metal or durock to hold in place to reduce heat loss to the exterior. Not sure if the dealer would do that for the flat fee but easy enough to do yourself beforehand.

That is a good idea and no most installers will not do it as part of a normal install we line the box with foil faces chimney insulation when it is an exterior chimney. I would be carefull about insulating and covering it with a hard material you might end up making the firebox to small. I would recommend just putting the insulation in there and letting it at that

 

[Creekheat]

Just picked up a bunch of pallets for kindling today

 

[laxin213]

How many square feet is the condo ? That's a big insert 3.0cu' right? I looked at it for my house just wondering if it's a bit too large for you

 

[LamoilleVT]

How many square feet is the condo ? That's a big insert 3.0cu' right? I looked at it for my house just wondering if it's a bit too large for you

2700 sq feet and quite leaky. The insert is 2.4 cubit feet- I actually wish I could go a bit bigger but the shallowness of the chimney leaves me with limited options

 

[LamoilleVT]

If the chimney is exterior, and you have the room, put some roxul insulation around the sides and back. Face it with metal or durock to hold in place to reduce heat loss to the exterior. Not sure if the dealer would do that for the flat fee but easy enough to do yourself beforehand.

The chimney is interior; the back side of the chimney is on the common wall between us and the adjacent townhouse owner. Would you recommend that I not insulate the sides and back in this case? Thanks

 

[bholler]

Insulating the inside of the fire box will not hurt anything but it is not nearly as necessary as if it was on an exterior wall

 

[Grisu]

The chimney is interior; the back side of the chimney is on the common wall between us and the adjacent townhouse owner. Would you recommend that I not insulate the sides and back in this case? Thanks

Depends how much you like your neighbor as they will benefit from the heat lost through the back.

2700 sq feet and quite leaky. The insert is 2.4 cubit feet- I actually wish I could go a bit bigger but the shallowness of the chimney leaves me with limited options

What do you mean with "shallowness" of the chimney and how does that interfere with placing a larger insert in your fireplace?

 

[LamoilleVT]

What is underneath the floor with the fireplace? A basement or just slab?

Beneath the main level with the fireplace, there is a lower level with a couple of bedrooms. One of the bedrooms also has a fireplace, and that flue appears to run right beside the flue for the fireplace on the first level. Speaking of that fireplace, we have never used it and the contractor who is tightening up our building envelope suggested putting in a chimney pillow such as this one:
http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_3284_4873
Has anyone had experience with these & can give an opinion on it?

Search for "stove board" for a relatively cheap interim solution. With the insert elevated by 9" you may not need any r-value down on the floor. Check with Hearthstone.

Good idea- will do.

I do the old fashioned newspaper and kindling but many members here like the Supercedars: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/super-cedars-im-sold.134623/ The new discount code is probably "hearth15".

Thank you- I just ordered a big box of them. You are right, "heath15" saved me 10%.

Going through the chimney once or twice in your first winter with the sooteater is still not a bad idea until you know how clean you are burning.

Good point- I just ordered one of these as well. The standard kit is for 18', and our chimney is probably an additional 5 or 6'- would you recommend getting extensions to go to the top of the chimney or does most of the creosote build up lower down?

you will need a mantel heat shield before even burning in the insert. A copper heat shield under the mantel may look ok. A pic of your fireplace would help.

Sounds good- where is the best place for buying such things? I've Googled around but have not been having much luck. I would be bummed to have the insert installed on Thursday but unable to fire it up...

Thanks!

 

[LamoilleVT]

What do you mean with "shallowness" of the chimney and how does that interfere with placing a larger insert in your fireplace?

I apologize, I miswrote- I meant the shallowness of the firebox

 

[LamoilleVT]

you will need a mantel heat shield before even burning in the insert. A copper heat shield under the mantel may look ok. A pic of your fireplace would help.

Here is a picture of the fireplace and hearth

We have a TV on the hearth now, but will likely move it until we determine what the temps will be when the insert is burning

 

[laxin213]

I haven't followed the whole thread but 3 things:

1. I have my TV over my insert, no problems so far (3 months) . It is wall mounted to brick. I have a mantel that extends over it. I have an IR temp gun (amazon about $12) and I get low temps near TV.
2. You may need a permit in your area from bldg inspector. Also your homeowners may or may not need notice. I have state farm they wanted a receipt showing a pro install, and photos of it. no rate increase (they already knew i had a wb fireplace.
3. Clearances. Check your manual, but you'll need 18" or 16" and 2" raised (which it looks like you easily have) from the front of the fireplace. Given you have carpet there I'd highly recommend a non combustible pad in front, to be overly cautious. You can buy a pre fab or make you own with like hardy board and tile. There are clearances for the mantel height for its width, etc. Also side to side. Read the whole manual before the install so you're familiar with the insert as your doing it. I included the tape measure showing in my pics to my homeonwers agent . Just me being cautions but my good friend burned his house down refinishing the hardwood floors he put the hot sawdust in garbage cans outside garage whole house caught and burned. total loss. It was HELL for him getting a payout, investigated for arson, living in an apartment with the family etc etc. This was 2008 after the economy tank and they looked at him hard.... I am overly cautious about house fires after seeing that.

 

[LamoilleVT]

Laxin-

Thanks for your comments. That is a good reminder of the risks of home fires- doesn't sound fun.
1. good to know that your TV on the mantle looked OK- I've got an IR gun coming as a few others had recommended that type of thermometer for inserts, so I'll use it on the TV as well
2. I gave a heads up to the homeowners association- they had no problem with it as it is professionally installed. Sounds like no permit is needed (installer said only Burlington in VT is where permits are needed around this area). Next hurdle is the insurance- I'll save the receipt as you had.
3. I may try the DIY version of tile on hardyboard for the hearth extension pad. Does this pad need to have an R value, or just be non-combustible? I believe it is the latter, but please let me know if you think differently.

They are installing the insert as I write this. I am bummed out that our narrow flue (5") led them to have to ovalize the 6" insert and to forego insulating it. But still excited to have it going soon.....