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Did you get a Permit for your install??

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by jqgs214, Jun 24, 2007.

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  1. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Back from golf I chose goose for the example because. We have spent time together I also know he straightened out faulty wiring a passed by a previous inspector
    And i knew he would he would view it not personal but situational.. Really the wiring issue may not apply to him. To those that are new here I am a prat time inspector paid per inspections
    Really it cost me money to do inspections I make more money with a hammer in my hands. You may ask why do it? I liken it to the professional athlete doing broadcasting. T
    As we all age the physical toll starts being an issue. We are not 21 anymore. That 90 lb bundle of shingles going up a 30' ladder starts being quite a chore. I figured If I took my years in construction and use the practical knowledge and apply it to inspections, I feel like the athlete being still part of the game. I admitt when it is below 10 inspections look pretty good atleast I have some income. Originally I was certified as a local inspector by Boca which now is non existant called the Internalional codes. At one point 12 years back a contractor took accception to failure and it happened to be a job I bid on.. He calimed I singled him because of that. and tried to get me fired. I had code backup and I'm still here. It was too close a call for my building commissioner and he appointed me Mechanical inspector. It keep me on the payroll, but reduced my inspections. I took it upon myself to learn what is expected of me on the Job. I even went so far as to read the trade schools HVAC text books. I wanted to know what was being taught and apply it to what I was inspecting in the field. Little by little I gained the knowledge and acceptance of many Mechanical contractors. The good ones welcomed enforcement and took me aside to teach me. They wanted an even playing field. Eventually I gained industry wide acceptance and reconition at the state level. I was one of a few that really understood mechanical inspections. Meanwhile I actually studied and passed all Boca mechanical certifications . Probably the only certifid mechanical inspector in MA.

    Just like most professions one has to want to suceed one has to want to be better When I do an inspection I know what it is like being the contractor with payment hindging upon my signature.
    I also know how to handle situations should I find issues.. I will contact the HVAC contractor and get them resolved. Many appreciate this.. Kinda like solving things in house And not showing up the contractor. This method works extremely well. Again like all posters here I am a homeowner I know it is my job to look out for their best interest. Years have taught me the best way to ballance this . One weights the battles or stands worth fighting and value judgement the minor issues. busting some for being 17.75" of clearance of single wall pipe is a non issue. Standing up for life safty issues against bid coperations is another.. I risked being sued into financial ruin for a stand I took against Sacks fith Ave. I backed them down. Some may ask why all for $30 Most days inspections are straight forward, most contractors do a good job.

    I'm sorry some have not had the best experience with their local inspectors. It does not have to be this way.

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  2. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    PURE HIJACK!!! welcome back elk , missed ya buddy!
  3. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I managed the closing of a world-wide data center in NJ back in tthe 90's. When we couldn't lease the building we tore the roof off of it and that stopped the property taxes.
  4. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    Glad you weren't the inspector that my builder cold cocked right in the front yard of the house Elk.

    In that case the builder was right. The inspector just didn't like him and was giving him grief for the hell of it.
  5. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    To answer web concerns probably a little history is required and this goes beyond hearth topic specttrun. Allow me to present it .I think all town are facing this delimar..
    Back in the early 80's MA votters passed prop 2.5 . Meaning the most the realestate taxes could be raised each year was 2.5%. This worked well originally but increased healthcare
    benifits increase well beyond 2.5 add in the increases of fuel and state mandated special ed cost all town faced deposits.. When things were booming the state aid took care of most cost. Things are not bomming and the state cut back financial support of programs they mandated. Every town experiences short falls of income and even level funding does not help. We expect certaint services and to keep that level it cost. Towns have to be creative in finding ways to make it up. One way is to tax improvements ie looking at building permits. Believe me in a time of need the last excuse you want to hear, We would have responded 15 minutes earlier if we were not under staffed.. All funds are placed in front of town meetings for approval or town meeting reps. You do have a vote should you decide to excersise it. I applaud Mrs web for taking an active roll. At least she is trying to make a difference. We can sit here and complain tha goverment is taking on it own adjenda and not acting in out best interest. On the local level it is not dem ve rep. Last town meeting I attended last week, approved the entire year budget 21 million. Guess how many voter attended 66 out of 6600 registered. Unless you are active like Mrs web, then all have little grounds to complain about.. You got a crapy inspector then who is to blame? look no further than you own mirror. Compalining about apathy rules will not garner any support from me.
  6. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    bb really i have to measure what I post on a public forum, but I have had a few very inseresting situations not unlike the one you wittnessed
    The only exception was I was not being a jerk, but doing my job. You may email me if you need more details
  7. BrotherBart

    BrotherBart Hearth.com LLC Mid-Atlantic Division Staff Member

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    I understand. I am not a big fan of homebuilders. I used to work with one's wife. She always told me "Don't believe a thing they say. They all come over to my house on Friday night and drink beer and talk about how they screwed you out of something and laugh like hell."

    At the closing on my first house I invited the builder out to the parking lot. On this last house we just had a little "Come to Jesus Meeting" before we went to closing. I told him I would be a little harder than the inspector.

    What a racket.

    On the first house though the VA inspector turned out to be a real buddy. And had guts too. The whole family room and the cabinets and kitchen area facing the family room were done in on-site stained and finished ash paneling. On the bar facing the family room was one piece of un-Godly nasty grain in the paneling. I argued forever with that builder and he wouldn't change it. At the VA walk-through the inspector looked at it and said "Do you really want that?". I said "No.". He looked that builder straight in the eye as he put his boot right through that piece of paneling. Steam was coming out of the builders ears but he didn't say a word.

    The inspector wouldn't sign off till it was replaced, and it was. That day.

    Inspectors can be your friends.
  8. littlesmokey

    littlesmokey Minister of Fire

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    I'm just a new guy here, but we are complaining about a very simple issue. THERE IS NO PRIDE IN WORKMANSHIP. Fifty years ago those builders would be picking up the trash at a true contractors site. We now have inspectors because we can not see the trash work that is done and we accept the contractors word. That service is not free. Should we not pay the inspectors? Should we pay them about the same as the illegals and turn them loose to collect their "fee" from the contractors. I'll argue quality with anyone, so if you don't see this as a, " push it to someone else and I am innocent " Lets talk the talk.
  9. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    As a note, both the GF and I are elected Town Meeting Reps, and have not missed any TM sessions since we've been elected... Can't say it's changed a great deal other than making a few minority votes, though we have stopped a few raids on the town reserve funds (Currently the fiscal conservatives in town are right at about 1/3 of TM, so we can win on 2/3 votes, but not simple majorities...)

    I am also on the:
    General By-law Review Committee
    Rules Committee
    Compost Site Committee
    Cable Advisory Committee

    I've run for Planning Board, and have been turned down several times for Finance Committee...

    On the Partisan level, the GF and I are also on the State Committee of the Mass Libertarian Party.

    I don't think I suffer from Apathy... :lol:

    Elk is correct in that local gov'ts are in a squeeze situation, primarily because of unfunded state and federal mandates - everything from "Special Needs" in the education system, to changes in the water and sewer treatment plants, not to mention employee health insurance, (mostly over rich Union contracts, which we have trouble rejecting when a majority of Town Meeting reps are either Town employees or family members - but the State Ethics people say there is no conflict of interest when a TM rep votes on his own contract... :-S ) and energy costs...

    One of the things that is starting to come back to haunt us and many other communities has been that part of the "creative financing" used to pay for the other expenses is skipping on infrastructure maintainence and repair, but this is something that can only be put off for so long, and is starting to reach the point where it can't be pushed much longer - Here in town we have severe problems with some of the major sewer lift stations that are basically at "End of Life" - failure will be disastrous, but the pumps are seriously worn out...

    Gooserider
  10. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Politics is a whole 'nother story, but suffice it to say that local government that are not partisan are often the exception, not the rule. My friends in VT don't even know the party affiliation of their local councils, which is great (in my opinion).

    And Goose seems to describe the same in his area.....maybe.

    But in our little hamlet of 5,000 souls here, it is more of the same that we saw in NJ. Certainly citizens here are more involved in terms of going to meetings, but our town is controlled by Dems, who are now the "bad people" (in our NJ town, it was GOP who were the "bad people"). Whereas Martha was a democrat in NJ and the other party was "bad", here in our town she sits for a beer with the lone GOP'er, who is now the "good" guy! Since all the tax accessment stuff is done by a local hire who is controlled by the council, all they have to do is to say that word and your house accessment will go up more than your neighbors did. Sure, you can fight it - we did, and won a battle (one time rebate), but lost the war (forever higher accessment). To give you an idea of how "fair" it is, when we went in with comps and clearly showed how we were valued too high compared to a number of other houses, the accessor said "your's is right, those others are all wrong". (in other words, get an attorney or shut up).

    If it floats one's boat, be my guest and bang thy head against the wall. Martha spent about 5 years going nuts down in NJ (24/7) and she could claim to have stopped millions from being spent....with some truth - BUT, not only did they get around it when she was there (they had majority), but they went on a complete orgy the minute she left......taxes never went down one cent and in fact went up virtually every year when she was in and after that.

    Certainly I am a cynic in this case - but you will often do more good by mowing the lawn for your elderly neighbor than trying to save $1.00 for the (usually ungrateful) populace of your municipality. Nepotism and favoritism reigns, and certainly one can claim to win some skirmishes, but will always lose the war.

    Back to the inspectors and permits - as I said, our town does a decent job....although there is a new guy now since the last dude got kicked out for not having the right credentials. But I have no beefs with them, even with their 2 hours a week manning the office. If I wanted to live in a big city, I would have moved somewhere else. I'm more into the Jamacian way "Soon come" was always the big saying down there.

    As far as inspector pay, that is a joke here in Ma - in NJ it was a highly paid profession, as well it should be. That amount of applied knowledge is something which few people have. While I am not going to march on city hall and tell them to pay more (inspectors should ban together and do so!), it is an insultingly small amount of money for a home visit.

    Yes, yes, I know these threads go way OT. My excuse is this - it is summertime. When the crunch hits we'll try to keep things on the straight and narrow.
  11. elkimmeg

    elkimmeg Guest

    Craig and I exchanged a few e-mails and I agreed that perhaps My direction needed a course adjustment.

    It took some time to self reflect and I have some other interesting things going on.

    Matha needed another Red Sox fan and moral support fighting city hall. You are not alone
  12. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    Agghh..."That is a pretty bold statement my friend (about pride in workmanship)...There so...I shall retort..."

    There is pride in workmanship in the trades. Only problem is...the market doesn't support it. If you think I'm pulling your leg...go "hang out your shingle and get into the game..." It really makes you wonder what the h^ll some people are thinking sometimes...when you loose a bid for $50 bucks...to a "toal hack", then get called later to fix the other guys mistakes. As a contractor (electrician), I often times tell people flat out...the reason my price is x-# of $$$ HIGHER is I'm not going to hit you with any "surprises" last minute. If I see a problem on a bid that will conflict with the work....you better believe you'll hear about it. Best example: "A Service Change"...don't know how many times I've heard "Joe so and so is gonna give me a 200 amp service for only 50 bucks more than your price with a 100 amp service..." Wish I had no morals like joe so and so. "Yeah buddy...he is going to soak you another $250 bucks to 'upgrade you' to a 200 amp panel...which you really don't need for your 1950's salt box with no load to really speak of... instead of splitting up the circuits in that 'four main and range' panel that micro surgeons have worked on for the last twenty years...that 200 amp panel is gonna solve all your problems...after he gets done...you will wish you kept that old fuse box with 'all green fuses' in it...let me know how you make out..."
    Unfortunately...electricians are their own worst enemy in regards to public perception. This "mysterious trade of ours" makes people think we are all crooks that just ride around changing light bulbs all day and resetting tripped breakers.

    If you want a really interesting debate...Yeah Sure...let's talk...lol

    "Good work ain't cheap...and cheap work ain't good.." ;)
  13. titan

    titan Minister of Fire

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    Keyman, I thought you electricians were just wire pullers, but you change bulbs and reset breakers too?You could make a fortune up here! ;-P
  14. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I know it always used to be amusing when driving south on the SE Xway out of Boston to count all the burned out bulbs in the billboard on electricians union hall that said why we should hire Union Workers... OTOH, I did some work helping a friend wire up an outdoor gazebo - I'm not an electrician, but I can read a "how to wire" book... His mother insisted on pulling a permit to keep the insurance company happy, and was delighted to tell me about how the inspector liked my work, said I'd exceeded code requirements consistently throughout (like it was difficult or something?)

    Most of wjat I did extra was either minimal extra expense, or done in the interests of having additional functionality, probably took a couple hours extra, but not a lot of time.

    I used 12g instead of 14g wire - IMHO all house wiring should be done with 12g if you are putting more than lightbulbs on the circuit.

    I used weatherproof Romex - I wasn't sure how an unheated gazebo would be counted, it was fully enclosed, but is it an exterior or interior location?

    The gazebo was 12' x 12' inside, w/ the door in the middle of one wall. They probably could have gotten away w/ one outlet, but I put one in the center of each wall, and one on each side of the door per code requirements on outlet spacing...

    I screwed down the wire connections on the outlets, and then wrapped with a couple rounds of tape before putting the outlets in the box - IMHO backwiring shouldn't be allowed, and the tape helps prevent any possibility of shorts.

    I fed the AC wiring to the gazebo via 1" underground NMT conduit, buried 18" - I could have used Burial grade Romex 12" down, but I was also going to be running low voltage (phone / ethernet / CATV) which needed to be in a conduit, and it's not any harder to run two conduits than it is one in the same trench, which I might as well make 18" since that was the deepest the trencher could go... Renting the power tool means 18" is no harder than 12" :coolsmile: Since I was using 1" for the low voltage, it was simplest to buy everything the same size for both runs...

    I ran the Romex through drilled studs rather than nailing across the surface, as my friend said they might want to finish the gazebo interior some day...

    Stuff like that... Didn't take much longer, added maybe $50 to the total cost, and the job was several times better...

    Gooserider
  15. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Keyman, I hear you dude. Most people still have very little knowledge of electricity. When I was wiring in my younger years, I got into a heated argument with the carpenter on site one day. The client was a young lady with her first house. Her finances were limited, but she wanted things done right. I was called in because she wanted to change over her fuse panel to circuit breakers. She had a 100 amp service in an all gas house so I recommended she stick with that size service. At that time WA state was pushing to build 5 nuclear plants (in a hydro rich state!) with its now infamous WPPSS fiasco. They were pushing 200 amp services as the only way to go. I come to the job the next morning and the lady says her carpenter has her all worried because he's told her she's making a big mistake. He says she HAS to have a 200 amp service and that if she didn't, she risked burning down the house! Oy! I called over the carpenter and asked him where he got his info from and what was his load analysis to back such a statement up. He waffled, but I wasn't about to back down. I asked why he would go about scaring a customer about something he knew absolutely nothing about. He muttered something about being on plenty of jobs and talking to plenty of electricians, but in truth he didn't know squat about electrical work. We ended up by agreeing he wouldn't like me inspecting his work or worrying the homeowner about his work and shut up.

    It takes all kinds of people to get a project done. A funny scene happened when we were remodeling upstairs a few years ago. I'm in my office and the contractor comes down and says, 'can you come up, we have a problem'. Uh, oh, I go up to see what the issue is. The floor has all been pulled up down to the joists in preparation for new underlayment for the bathroom tile. There is a lot of knob and tube wiring showing. The contractor has a somber look and says, 'we can't cover this up. now's the time to fix this.' I thought this was odd because we had new recessed cans installed by the previous owner in the kitchen below, so I asked if it was live and he said -You bet!. He pulled out a Walmart circuit tester that was supposed to beep near a live circuit. He held it near the wiring and voila, it chirped loudly. As he went back to his work I studied the knob and tube and traced it back a bit. Sure enough, a few feet away it had been cut. The previous installer had simply left the old stuff in when he wired new. I didn't let the contractor know, instead I called him over and asked to see he tester. He brought it out and demonstrated it's superb capabiliites again. This time I grabbed the old wire and faked getting badly shocked and unable to let go of the wire. I think he almost had a heart attack so I tugged on the wire until the cut end was visible in my hand. Then I grabbed the other cut end of the circuit to show it was just an open piece of wire. He calmed down and promptly threw his Walmart tester in the trash.

    However, our construction foray last summer showed me there are both sides of the fence. Housing is still booming here. And there are a lot of folks moving up from California. That is having the unfortunate side effect of artificially boosting wages here. There is so much work that fairly mediocore workers are asking $40-45/hr. A couple weeks ago, we had one carpenter come to look at finishing our siding and said he gets $70/hr.! The problem is that for Californians, used to paying high prices for everything, and flush with cash from selling out in SF or LA, they just shrug their shoulders and pay. We had to let go a couple of contractors last summer because, although they thought they were hot stuff, they really were just promising young amateurs that still had a lot to learn. After having a couple windows installed with zero shim space and sheetrock patching of a different thickness in one section, I sent them packing. It's one thing to know how to pound nails and a whole nother to have the depth of experience of a person like yourself or Elk. I have no problem paying a good wage to skilled craftsman - we finally found a couple that finished things up nicely. But it seems like lately, there are a lot of less-than-skilled workers and contractors out there that are perfectly content to get away with murder and then cover it all up and make it look pretty on the surface. Maybe this is because we're in a rural area with a finite pool of labor, but a lot of these guys are getting away with amazingly crappy work. And the good ones are not interested in small jobs. They're too busy building palaces for the CA immigrants.
  16. littlesmokey

    littlesmokey Minister of Fire

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    In my rush to respond, I made too simple a statement. There are still lots of craftsmen that do very fine work, ask for and are paid a premium for their work. There are also lots of people that should be working at WalMart that think they are in the contracting business.

    A friend who is a plumbing contractor is Sun Valley (now retired) was actually sued by a homeowner for work another contractor totally messed up. My friend had bid the job for a complete new house, the other contractors bid was $10,000 less. Homeowner took the other bid. Job was done, passed and mortgaged when the owner moved in and within a week had raw sewage in the basement. I don't know all the details, but my friend went out and bid the repair, or complete reinstall, now in a finished house. The bid was more than double the original bid, obviously. The homeowner sued claiming my friend was gouging him and that it should be done for the original bid amount. He never sued the original contractor, because he had moved on to another resort town. The case went to court and was thrown out immediately, but my friend had the attorney fees to bear. That's when he retired.

    It's rather scarey to think what the new homes will look like and function like in say 20 years?? I certainly wouldn't want to have one of the tract homes that I see being built at the rate of one a day. There can't be much pride in that work.

    Sorry if I offended any true craftsmen. That was not my intention. I guess I stooped to the lowest rung on the ladder and stopped.
  17. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Educated consumers are the key - and that is sort of what we do on Hearth.com.

    While Elk is certainly on one end of the spectrum (in terms of what he would expect from subs if he built a house), even a less educated customer can have demands which will push the builder to do better. This does often involve paying more. Our builder, who lives three houses down, is in no way a craftsperson.....well, his wife and daughter are, but his claim to fame is like Elks grandparents...he lived around here for decades and had some land and the contacts - and, most importantly, he has good subs! It just may be luck, or it may be experience. He used to build lower priced simple ranch homes and capes, but in the last 5 years or so he gravitated toward more upscale places for folks like us....empty or almost empty nesters who sold their last (usually long term) houses for a good profit. There is an ass for every seat. Upscale around here is different than upscale in Hilton Head (here, it means 2200 to 3200 sq. ft, 9 foot ceilings downstairs, granite counters and a 2 car garage).

    Luckily, most of the people who I have hired since I moved here have been folks who have pride in their work. And, even if some did not, at least those were not doing the finish work! While an electrician may be different, being a carpenter or GC is largely a matter of knowing how to fix mistakes.
  18. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I disagree. Being a carpenter is largely a matter of having knowledge and skills, being able to do math ( a real shortcoming in this trade) and knowing how to avoid making mistakes in the first place. It's a poorer carpenter that makes mistakes and then fixes them, all at the customer's expense. And sometimes, burying mistakes yet making it look pretty, like Mo is running into, can be really costly to fix a few years later.
  19. jqgs214

    jqgs214 Minister of Fire

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    To get back on topic, I submitted my permit application on Friday - no need for an electrical permit like I was previously told. 3 copies of my property survey, 3 pieces of notorized applications $100.00 and 20 minutes of waiting my turn and I should have the permit by next weekend and be legit. Not as much a PITA as I was led to believe from my first conversation with the local building dept.
  20. DriftWood

    DriftWood Minister of Fire

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    Wonderful post Elkimmeg on the permitting process!!! Good luck in all you are doing to NOT LET IT HAPPEN!! Keep us informed as you have time Once again Thank You for all your time spent posting here.

    Yes I got a permit for both of my DIY stove installs. I will do it again. Both permits were easy here, just a fill out a form, the recent was over $120.00 though. I called the inspector over to my house to OK my plan before I started any installation to see what he was looking for. Both passed with a signed paper after the inspection.
  21. kjsnooks

    kjsnooks New Member

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    I just bought a wood stove out of the want ads and called my insurance co. and the county officials both of whom told me no permit was required and the insurance just repeals my 4% credit i get for not having one to begin with. I asked him if he needed to inspect it once its installed he said nope. I do live out in the country in idaho where wood stoves are common maybe thats why i dont need one? The tow 50 miles south of me wants a permit perhaps it has to do with population/pollution? Anyway I guess i got off lucky and will just have to use common sense on installation.
  22. North of 60

    North of 60 Minister of Fire

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    Jacob Jacob Jacob If the stove you are installing ( the fisher ) from the other thread in your mobile. Than you just dont get it!!!!!! Code is the bare minimum.
    Mostly based on the life of hard knocks. So they add to the code every year as people learn the does and donts. product tests and so on. Most codes have come into effects because of somones DEATH!!! :bug: Just because of were you are from or no permit required doesnt mean you or your family is exempt from an
    unsafe situation. You came to this site for advice. Use it. Pick out a rated stove for your application an the support here will flow in. Just like for your saftey as I am writing now. CHEERS :coolcheese:
  23. kjsnooks

    kjsnooks New Member

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    not to change the topic, i was just bringing up the fact here there is not code the question was what have others done and i had to do nothing as far as permits go. As for the fisher please help me understand better whats not safe about it. the outside air feed is all i have heard mentioned besides wieght(wich is not an issue). any way sorry for the off topic post just chipping in my two cents about permits and code for me :)
  24. keyman512us

    keyman512us Member

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    Web....

    Even here "In the Peoples' Republic of Massachusetts..." It's not that bad.

    As an electrician for hire in this state I love hearing comments like yours above.

    Replacing a receptacle or light switch, a fixture or even a circuit breaker is considered maintenance and does not require a permit.

    Legally, under CMR you could work side by side with your neighbor in his home doing electrical work and you aren't breaking the law. The way the laws are worded it only becomes a crime if you charge for your work ("No person shall perform electrical work for hire unless they are licensed by the commonwealth..." )

    Now whether you accept the offer of a beer at the end of the job...I'll leave that for the lawyers to decide. ;)

    The big 'debate' of whether or not a '(single family dwelling) Homeowner' can do their own electrical work??? According to the letter of state law...it neither condones nor does it deny...

    Technically, if your locality says "No Homeowners can do their own wiring"??? Ask to see where it says you can't under state law...then watch the look on the inspectors face change.

    This debate goes on and on. Between the board of electrical examiners and the state legislature you would think they would decide one way or the other and "come to a consesus"...but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    Maybe someday they will pull their thumbs outta their a^ses and do their job... Until that point Rich Fredette & Crew will continue to aggravate and annoy all licensed electricians...but the board is good for that...we're used to it.

    One of these days the 'Ambigously worded laws' is going to "bite the state on the back-side" and I'm sure just about every licensed electrician will say "See...Told you so!"
  25. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    6,737
    Loc:
    Northeastern MA (near Lowell)
    Jacob this is flat WRONG... Just because you don't have to pull a permit (lucky you!) and get inspected does NOT mean that the codes don't exist - they are still written down, they are still open to you, and they still come from the lessons learned when people died cause they did it the wrong way... You may not have Elk and his pals looking over your shoulder, but you should still do your install like they were.... That means look at what the code requires and follow that.

    Gooserider
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