Do I need a primary circ pump for my proposed plan?

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d-bone20917

New Member
Oct 2, 2008
8
Northern NY
I’ve been reading this forum on a daily basis for a while, but this is only my second post. I purchased a wood boiler with fuel oil back up last winter (AHS Multi-fuel WOC55) and I am getting ready to install it this summer. Although there is a lot of great information on this forum it can be overwhelming. My plan is to run 1.5” black iron from the boiler to a manifold approximately 30 feet away. I will have an expansion tank and air vent in the line. At the manifold I plan to have individual circ pumps feeding four ¾ inch zones. Two baseboard zones in the house, one modine unit heater in the garage, and one zone to a side arm heat exchanger on the DHW heater. My plan is to have the water circulate through the garage unit heater any time the boiler is fired up with wood and have the fan tied to a thermostat and also the high limit aquastat on the boiler for overheat protection.

Will I also need a primary circ pump for this system or will the four individual circ pumps off the manifold be sufficient? I see most of the piping diagrams on this site always show a primary circ pump. Also, would I be smart to just tie the side arm in with one of the baseboard zones and eliminate a separate zone just for that? Thanks in advance for any help that can be provided and any potential improvements you can add to my plan.
 
Do you "NEED" a Primary pump?????

Only if you build a Primary/Secondary system!

If you simply run the 30 feet to a supply manifold and the zone pumps then back to a return manifold that's piped back to the boiler -- Its all good :)
 
A few thoughts...

1. I didn't see any mention of storage in your plans? I know that the WoodGun folks claim it isn't needed, but IMHO it would help...

2. You might want to put a heat exchanger (either a flat plate or a second sidearm) and a seperate piping system for the garage heater so that you can run anti-freeze in that loop - you don't want that heater to freeze and break a line as that could cause serious problems...

3. If you want to get rid of the seperate zone for the DHW sidearm, I wouldn't put it on one of the baseboard lines, as that might limit the available heating to only when that zone calls for heat, or dump unwanted heat into that zone if the DHW heater can make it's own call. Instead I would put it in the main line going to the other zones, so that it will get heat when any zone calls for it... (However, remember that if it is not on it's own zone, then you will essentially be limited to only having the boiler heat your DHW during heating season.)

4. You should not use any circuit with a pump in it as part of your overheat protection - you need something that works even in case of a power failure, i.e. a gravity loop... (some folks just run a bunch of old junk baseboard on the ceiling of the boiler room for this, which is only used in case of overheat...

Gooserider
 
Thanks for the information so far. I will work on drawing up a diagram and try and post it today.

The AHS Multi-fuel is not a gasifier like the wood gun. It is an updraft boiler, so I do not plan to do storage at this time.
 
This diagram shows what I described in my initial post. Please comment, critique, and offer any recomendtions you see and areas I can improve on. Thanks.
 

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d-bone20917 said:
Thanks for the information so far. I will work on drawing up a diagram and try and post it today.

The AHS Multi-fuel is not a gasifier like the wood gun. It is an updraft boiler, so I do not plan to do storage at this time.

Thanks for the drawing, it makes it a lot easier to understand what you are referring to...

Even though your boiler isn't a gasifier, it still has the same basic issues that ANY wood burning appliance has, namely that it is most efficient if it burns at or near "full bore" all the time and never idles... I have a friend with an older updraft Tarm and no storage, it is very clean burning when at full fire, but belches out huge clouds of smoke every time it gets a demand for heat and opens the damper to come off idle.

In many ways it looks to me like what you are doing with the garage heater is trying to do a constant demand to keep the boiler from going to idle - which is the same thing that storage does in essence.

I also don't see what you are doing to keep that garage heater loop from freezing any time you aren't running the wood boiler (Unless you are planning to run anti-freeze in the entire system, which has a different set of issues....)

Gooserider
 
I apologize if any of these are stupid questions, but this is a first for me. I was under the impression that you needed continuous circulation for a wood boiler because it doesn’t kick on and off like a gas or oil boiler. The boiler has a fuel oil back-up also which we would use if we go out of town for some reason. In this instance I will also need the circ pump on the unit heater tied to a garage thermostat. Obviously I wouldn’t want constant circulation if I’m burning oil. I’m not concerned about the garage freezing. It is an attached garage and very well insulated. I would plan to leave the thermostat on 55 or so all the time and turn it up when I plan to work out there, which is all the time when I’m not at my real job. I currently heat the garage with a woodstove, which I plan to remove.

Would I be better off to have constant circulation through the sidearm and have the unit heater circ on a thermostat? Then if we go away and switch to oil I could just shut off that pump. No reason to have hot water if we aren’t home anyway.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
d-bone20917 said:
I apologize if any of these are stupid questions, but this is a first for me. I was under the impression that you needed continuous circulation for a wood boiler because it doesn’t kick on and off like a gas or oil boiler. The boiler has a fuel oil back-up also which we would use if we go out of town for some reason. In this instance I will also need the circ pump on the unit heater tied to a garage thermostat. Obviously I wouldn’t want constant circulation if I’m burning oil. I’m not concerned about the garage freezing. It is an attached garage and very well insulated. I would plan to leave the thermostat on 55 or so all the time and turn it up when I plan to work out there, which is all the time when I’m not at my real job. I currently heat the garage with a woodstove, which I plan to remove.

Would I be better off to have constant circulation through the sidearm and have the unit heater circ on a thermostat? Then if we go away and switch to oil I could just shut off that pump. No reason to have hot water if we aren’t home anyway.

Thanks for the feedback.

If you are trying to learn, there aren't stupid questions... You may or may not need constant circulation with a wood burner, but yes, you probably will need more than a fossil burner. That you have a backup oil burner won't change your plumbing all that much, although it will have an impact on your control strategy.

Now when you are burning, the fire will be producing heat, and in order to stay comfortable on "design days" (the coldest weather you plan for) and because of the cyclical nature of a wood fire, most of the time you will be capable of producing more heat than you have a demand for from your heating loads... There are essentially three or four things you can normally do to deal with the excess heating potential...

1. Constantly dump heat into a zone, regardless of whether it is calling for it or not - can lead to uncomfortable overheating, and in the case of a DHW tank, the amount of heat it can accept before overheating is fairly small. In any rate this is in effect "throwing away" those BTU's as they won't be available for use to satisfy a later demand.

2. Restrict the air flow into the boiler, and run it at less than full output - This is less efficient, and will tend to lead to more smoke and creosote as you can't get clean combustion withot enough air. Again, throwing BTU's away, except now you are spreading them around the neighborhood as excess smoke, instead of trying to dissipate them as excess heat...

3. Shut the boiler down most of the way so that it "idles" with minimal combustion, except when there is a heat call, and you come off idle to answer it. This is more efficient than option two, but you will still get a certain amount of air starved combustion smoke, plus you will have some excess smoke each time you have to switch the fire from idle to full burn - so it still wastes heat, but less so... You might still need some level of circulation to keep the idling boiler from overheating, but probably much less so.

4. Run the boiler flat out, and dump all the excess heat produced during the burn into a storage tank, where they can be saved for use at a later point, after the fire has burned out... This way the storage tank acts as a "flywheel" to even out the heat production and only give your heating system as many BTU's at any point as it "needs" - This gives you the best of both worlds, a boiler that is burning as cleanly and efficiently as it is capable of, and not wasting any BTU's that are produced in exess of the demand. As a bonus, the storage tank also gives you a much longer effective "burn time" as it lets you increase the time between boiler tending sessions....

In terms of the control strategy, it really doesn't matter whether the boiler uses an internal backup fossil burner, or if you had a seperate fossil boiler, as you would do about the same either way, namely have the system plumbed so that the fossil boiler only supplied the actual heating demand loads, and did NOT attempt to heat the storage tank...

The other issue that needs to be addressed, is the question of what do you do when "chit happens" and you have a potential overheating scenario - typically some sort of pump or plumbing failure that prevents normal circulation, often due to a power failure... This is where you will see mention of "dump zones" which are either existing heating zones set up so they can at least somewhat flow with gravity, or an extra "gravity loop" that is only used in this sort of emergency - when you have to throw BTU's away in order to prevent worse things from happening...

Hate to sound so insistent on the storage, but it really does seem to be the "magic key" to making a wood setup work efficiently, whether it is a conventional boiler or a gasifier.

Gooserider
 
Thanks for the great information Gooserider. Storage is not in my immediate future, but it sounds like it is definately something to work towards. I guess I still have some thinking to do to figure out what will work best for me right now. Thanks again.
 
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