Do you have a grid-tied solar system?

[begreen]

We are looking into installing a system now that we can one made from WA state components. This pays back at $.54/KW hr. + $.10/KW hr for net metering. One question no one has been able to answer is whether the annual rebate check is considered income or not? As far as I can tell, it is not on the WA state level, but I am unsure about at the Federal level. I'm checking with the power co. to see how they report it, but no answer yet.

 

[oldspark]

Cant you just bank the power you produce off setting what you consume? The price difference would have to be figured in.

 

[begreen]

Not the way the system works, but essentially that is what I am hoping the tax code perceives it as. If so, it's not income, but a prepayment on our winter consumption when net gain is going to be crappy in our area.

 

[begreen]

Word:

According to WAC (Washington Administrative Code) 458-20-273:
"(24) Does the department of revenue consider the incentive payment taxable income? No, the department of revenue does not consider the incentive payment an applicant receives to be taxable income."

Last year it read: "(17) Does the department of revenue consider the incentive payment I receive taxable income? No, the department of revenue characterized the payment you receive, paid by your light and power company, as a subsidy or rebate for the purchase or installation of an energy conservation measure. Therefore, the department does not characterize the incentive payment as income under Washington state's law."

Bring on the sunshine. It's watts happening baby!

 

[mbcijim]

I received a rather large (six figure) Sunshine Grant from the state of Pennsylvania.
Uncle Sam considered it income and took 39% of it.

 

[peakbagger]

The state of NH reported the subsidy for installation of my grid tie system as income to the fed. Note, it sounds like Washington has a rather generous Feed in Tariff which pays out for every KW produced rather than an upfront subsidy so they may be treated differently.

 

[PapaDave]

BeGreen, do you even get any sun out there? :cheese:
We go w/o most of the winter.
Of course, now that you've let this out, we'll be clamoring for pics.
Is this going on the roof, post(s), or ground frame? Tracking?

 

[mbcijim]

BeGreen, I think the most important thing to know is that Federal Tax law is NOT State Tax Law. If you're worried about it and it will make or break your project talk to your accountant and spend a few bucks now.

 

[begreen]

This will most likely be going on the roof. We do get some sunshine, but in reality, the system is only expected to be fully productive from March through September. Everything else is a bonus. Long daylight hours in the summer are the counterpoint.

mbcijim, there is no 1099 submitted for this incentive. It's not considered income in this state so far. I will be confirming this with our accountant soon.

 

[GaryGary]

This will most likely be going on the roof. We do get some sunshine, but in reality, the system is only expected to be fully productive from March through September. Everything else is a bonus. Long daylight hours in the summer are the counterpoint.

mbcijim, there is no 1099 submitted for this incentive. It's not considered income in this state so far. I will be confirming this with our accountant soon.

If you've not done it already, you can get a pretty good idea what the month by month output will be from PVWatts.

http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/pvwatts/

It gives month by month output fort he PV array you define -- allows you to adjust tilt and azimuth -- it uses a weather file for the town you pick, so takes into account local sun/cloud levels. Its from NREL.

I find Version 1 easier to use.

Gary

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the tip Gary.

 

[jdemaris]

We are looking into installing a system now that we can one made from WA state components. This pays back at $.54/KW hr. + $.10/KW hr for net metering. One question no one has been able to answer is whether the annual rebate check is considered income or not? As far as I can tell, it is not on the WA state level, but I am unsure about at the Federal level. I'm checking with the power co. to see how they report it, but no answer yet.

I've had a grid-tie system in Otsego County, NY for five years now. No income tax on reimbursment from the power company. Now, if we ever made a profit overall? Don't know, it never really happened yet. The power company has never really made a cash payment to us. Just keep giving us credits.

No raise in property tax either, which I had been concerned about.

Note that some states allow power companies to keep all the excess power and pay grid-tie users nothing. Michigan was like that last I checked. If you used 7000 KWHs in one year, but made 10,000 KWH - they would sell the extra 3000 KWH to other customers and keep the money.

If you install, hopefully you know that most grid-tie systems shut down and will not work when the grid is down. I custom-designed mine so we CAN use it when the grid is down.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have discussed the shutdown issue with the electrician. Seems that once the main has been isolated from the grid, that the system could be tickled with a UPS. Would that work?

 

[jdemaris]

Thanks for the tips and advice. I have discussed the shutdown issue with the electrician. Seems that once the main has been isolated from the grid, that the system could be tickled with a UPS. Would that work?

When I installed my grid-tie system, I had to design it myself because there were no grid-tie kits on the market that allowed grid-down use. Here in NY, to get any New York install-incentives a person is forced to use a NY certified installer - and many are not very skilled and install premade kits only. That was 5 years ago and I assume tech has improved a bit.

In my case, I've got battery backup. That requires the added expense of batteries, and controller-chargers. When the grid goes down, my house and barn automatically revert to the twin inverters powered by the 48 volt battery bank. As soon as the sun is out, the panels charge the batteries, or run my home via the twin inverters, or both. It's seemless. When the power goes down (and it has many times in the past five years) things go on here as if nothing happened.

To install a pure grid-tie only system, all is needed is - panels and inverters. Often those panels are very high voltage and not suitable for ever using with a battery bank. Some are wired up as high as 600 volts DC. If you had such a system, I know of no way to make it truly useful in a grid-down situation. Yes, there are ways to cheat and force the solar DC power to get through the inverters and feed the house AC when the sun is bright. But even so, that wouldn't work early morning, late noon, night, when a cloud came by, or many 24 hour dark days and weeks in the winter.

Solar works by making a lot of power, and sometimes making no power - at different times. So, to work - you must have a way to store the excess when available, and get it back when the sun is gone - to run your house. Grid-tie does that when the grid is "on." Batteries do it anytime as long as they not dead. Our battery bank here can run the house for three days - with total darkness - which has never happened. If it did somehow occur- I have means to use a diesel generator to power a 48 volt battery charger - to prevent the batteries from getting overdrawn.

So, basically - if you are buying grid-tie -but want main components that could be used with battery backup, you ought to keep systems DC voltage at 48, 36, or 12 volts. Note that with a few newer inverter-chargers, 60 volts is also possible. If you buy a bunch of 100 or 200 volt panels - regardless if wired up in parallel or series - it's doubtful you could ever get them to work on a battery-backup system. If you got panels that are no higher then 60 volts each, then it would be possible at a later date.

 

[begreen]

Yes, I understand how grid-tie works. Fortunately, there are some nice options now. We have been contemplating both grid-tie and battery backed-up grid-tie (Outback). The grid-tie backup would only be for emergency use. We are in earthquake territory here. In this circumstance the plan would be to run refrigeration on solar in the daylight, and a 1-2 hr run on generator for refrigeration again in the evening. The idea being to extend one's fuel supply if damages are severe enough to cut us off from power for say a month. Otherwise, we would need a large bank of batteries to cover real usage I would think.

We should chat about your battery backup. I'd like to know more about the batteries, maintenance, cost and longevity.

 

[jdemaris]

The grid-tie backup would only be for emergency use. We are in earthquake territory here. In this circumstance the plan would be to run refrigeration on solar in the daylight, and a 1-2 hr run on generator for refrigeration again in the evening.

We should chat about your battery backup. I'd like to know more about the batteries, maintenance, cost and longevity.

The absolute "bang for the buck" is still old-fashioned FLA batteries. That is, "flooded lead acid." If you plan on having batteries for a long time . . . you can price your batteries as a "dollars per month." Good old fashioned deep cycle lead-acid batteries that require a little bit of maintenance now and then - cost much less then AGMs in the long-run. AGMs (aborbed glass mat) batteries do have some advantages- but do they mean anything to the average user? Maybe in a race-car or space-ship. AGMs can be used upside down. They can be air-shipped. They also cost much more and can self-destruct much more easily when charging isn't perfect.

If you shop for FLA batteries, it mostly boils down to . . . the more money you spend . . . the longer they will last. When you get all done, a 5 year battery for $110 is no better then a 10 year battery at $220 or a 20 year battery for $440. What I look for is a battery I can get locally. This way, there are no shipping charges when you buy new - or want to claim a warranty. For many years, Trojan T-105 "golf cart" batteries were the best buy. But in a few years, they've gone from $60 each up to near $200 each with some sellers. Subsequently, at present . . . I prefer the Deka GC2 batteries. You can buy through NAPA right now as #8144, at around $117 each. Two years ago they were $57 each, but oh well. With care, they will last 7-8 years.

If you buy grid-tie, things can get more pricey then normal. That because of strict requirements from power companies, and strict requirements from some state incentive programs. Here in NY, I was forced to use Rolls-Surette batteries, due to warrantee mandates. My full-sine-wave inverters are Outbacks and so are my charger-controllers. If I was off-grid, I could use mod-wave inverters and solar panels that cost less then half the price. I have an off-grid home that has a 4000 watt Xantrex/Trace mod-wave inverter that cost me $900, along with another Chinese 4000 watt mod-wave inverter that cost me $130. The 3000 watts worth of photovoltaic panels cost me $1.20 per watt because they are "blems" with no UL tags. Fully warranteerd and fully functional. Just not allowed with state incentive programs. My "incentive" panels cost $4 per watt.

About refrigeration. If it is a concern, consider buying a 12-24 volt DC Sundanzer. I've got two and find them to be absolutely amazing. You can buy as a chest frig, or as a chest freezer. Also, a frig can be turned down enough that it keeps stuff on the bottom frozen. We've got one at a remote cabin in the NY Adirondack woods with very little sun. Hooked to a pair of 6 volt batteries and just one 120 watt solar panel, we use it all summer with zero problems. It seems to run on almost nothing. Technically, the 8 cubic foot fridge is rated at using 140 watt-hours for a full day at 70 F. 300 watt hours a day at 90 F.
The freezer model uses more at 500 watt hours a day at 70 F.

 

[DaveH9]

Taxing the rebate as income has a benefit, you get to claim the 30% Fed tax credit on the full amount before the rebate. That is how it is done in MA. In CT the rebate is not taxed as income, but the30% Fed tax credit is considered on the amount after the rebate. Depending on your tax bracket, it may be better either way. Are the SRECs in MA or NJ considered taxable income?