down draft type stoves

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Hanko

Minister of Fire
Feb 26, 2008
795
livingstion co, Michigan
I keep hearing all these bad satements concerning the downdraft type stove, VC, Dutchwest, lopi. just what are the problems? There are 3 dutchwest stoves in our family, brother, son and mine. They all work grate. Mine equals the performance of my jotul . There is a post out on the lopi leydon and the issues the man is having. My douche west as I call it is going on 4 years and heats my 1500 sq shop on 2 cords, maybe a tad more of oak, ash, and whatever.
 
I am happy with mine! It took almost two months of practice but now it works like a charm. I am also content with burn times 8-9 hrs achieved every time. Originally, I had issues with over fire & short burn times (6hrs max)... with lots of practice/experimenting with types of wood I am happy with both, steady controllable fire & 8-9 hrs burns.
 
You can do a forum search on everburn and read up -probably hundreds of pages of stuff. I have always maintained that the design is NOT defective, since I have a lot of experience with the Acclaim (similar setup). BUT, perception and experience are everything, and the fact is that many experienced wood burners, some having used VC stoves for 20+ years, had a tough time making a go of these things. The problems seem to related to a few things...

1. Stove too highly tuned so it could pass EPA with bragging rights (lowest numbers).....EPA uses 2x4 and 4x4 pine!
2. Needs a chimney that is just right....in other words, not as much flexibility as updraft non-cats
3. Needs more owner education in terms of operation
4. Overheating of rear and flue collar (some have glowed red).
5. Since secondary burn occurs in rear of stove, monitoring that it is working can be difficult
6. Similar to #5, glass can get dirty and sometimes not a lot of flame visible because fire is in rear

Now some of these are admittedly nuances....and every stove design has these. If yours are working fine, that is great and a testament to what I have always said - that the basic design is sound.

But we cannot dismiss the experiences of people like Tradergordo, etc. who are highly educated, have common sense and applied strict methodology in an attempt to make these things work well......and they did get them to work well (in most cases). A few of the users gave up and sold their or traded them in. That is a pretty rare occurrence in the world of wood stoves...speaking from experience here. I sold many thousands of stoves in my shops and don't remember even one customer hauling a unit back.
 
Diabel said:
I am happy with mine! It took almost two months of practice but now it works like a charm. I am also content with burn times 8-9 hrs achieved every time. Originally, I had issues with over fire & short burn times (6hrs max)... with lots of practice/experimenting with types of wood I am happy with both, steady controllable fire & 8-9 hrs burns.
you know its funny, everyone that has one likes them. My brothers big cat is going on 20 years and stll kicks ass. Like i said mine equals the performance of the $2300 jotul i just bought. maybe I should have got another DW and saved $900
 
Short and sweet I'd say that the stove works best in colder areas and sized properly, with an owner who can take the time to learn the secrets. A decent chimney and wood helps also.

All stoves need some "learning", but this one needs a bit more because of the bypass and lack of visibility of what is happening.

Personally, I would have one. But then again I know how to use them. I would probably not suggest one to my dad, who just wants to put a piece of wood in and have it go.

Another issue came up recently when VC doubled (and even tripled some) the price of replacement parts. I think they will catch this and roll them back, because this makes it hard to recommend the stoves.....replacement parts are just too high.
 
Diabel said:
I am happy with mine! It took almost two months of practice but now it works like a charm. I am also content with burn times 8-9 hrs achieved every time. Originally, I had issues with over fire & short burn times (6hrs max)... with lots of practice/experimenting with types of wood I am happy with both, steady controllable fire & 8-9 hrs burns.
any idea how much a new cat is for one of these stoves
 
I was refering to a 1990 medium DW. my brother was asking
 
FYI a 20 year old Big Dutchwest cat would not be downdraft. That would be top mounted catalyst. Different animal than the everburn, downdraft dutchwest stoves, fyi.
 
I think you can get that cat for a decent price, because it is relatively generic (round).

You might even be able to try one of the replacement metal ones which is cheaper, although the jury is still out on them.

Woodstock site has replacement 6 inch round for $125.
http://store.woodstove.com/xcart/home.php?cat=265

That seems like a good price, since it was that much 10 years ago in my shop!
 
Corie said:
FYI a 20 year old Big Dutchwest cat would not be downdraft. That would be top mounted catalyst. Different animal than the everburn, downdraft dutchwest stoves, fyi.

didnt know that. its my brothers stove. I just figures they were all alike
 
Yeah, Hanko....be aware of these different VC designs....

Older Dutch - updraft catalytics (same with newer dutch cats)
Older Encore, Intrepid - Crossdraft cat (cat in rear behind firebox)
Newer non-cat encore, non-cat case Dutch - everburn or downdraft non-cats

The updraft cats use a round cat, mostly 6"
Crossdraft models use rectangular cats, usually more expensive (sometimes double the cost).

The models we are speaking of as downdraft are the new non-cat encores and non-cat cast dutch. The Acclaim is a similar design to the downdrafts, but with a bit more "experience" (time on the market).

None of these threads related to cat VC or Dutch, only the relatively new non-cats.
 
I had no problem with the VC CAT stoves for 20 years, I put an Everburn in the same spot, same stack, same pipe, etc. The Everburn required constant attention, the secondary stalled out often, it used too much wood (mostly because it was always in primary open mode to get hot enough) and etc.

I took it out and put it in the basement (for Corie) and put in a Mansfield. Since day one the Mansfield has not smoked, used 1/2 the wood and heated the same space with no problem.

I would have a CAT stove from them again, but it does seem CAT stoves are slowly going away. And, I have no confidence in the company at all.

As for Lopi or the other stoves using the same type technology, I just can't figure why someone would want to use that when there are better alternatives.

But, I do hope anyone who has one gets a good burn and is happy.
 
Hanko...

You had posted a couple of other times with references to your DW. Now, is yours a NON CATALYTIC or is it the catalytic model? I really enjoyed my catalytic DW and had actually wanted to replace my undersized on with the biggest one - but it required 8" chimney, and wasn't cost effective to replace my chimney. That's when the non-cat largest DW entered the picture. Used 6" flue, latest, greatest technology, etc.

I wasn't a big fan of the fact that its emissions numbers and efficiency were less than my cat model, but VC hyped up the "ease of operation" and how much more user-friendly they were.

THAT, my friend, is complete BS. The stove would work great, but then 10 minutes later, completely stall out. Smoke POURED out the chimney. I had never had an experience like that. The cat stove would smoke for about 10 min. during start up, engage the cat, and you wouldn't even know that I had a fire going.

I tried and tried to get it to work out, even going to the extent of paying an "experienced" installer come out to take a look (BTW, he knew less about this stove than I did). Called VC tech support - this is what REALLY pissed me off. Those guys knew absolutely NOTHING.

Well, after three months of screwing with it, getting no help from dealers, and even the manufacturer - I decided that I should go with something else.

That's my experience. My Hearthstone has performed flawlessly since I got it. Just a bit too small for my place.
 
Mine is a dutchwest medium non cat. I bought it in the fall of 2006 when my new 1500 sq ft shop was built. Doesnt matter, but I have gel filled electric back up in case I have to go away, but back to the stove. The chimney is staright up 16 ft. (two story building). I was imeadiatly impressed by the heat out put versus wood usage. I burnt 2 full cord last year and probably a face cord over that this year. we have had a tuff winter here in Michigan. I want to add that the reason I bought this stove is the fact my brother has and older cat model that has worked good for him. My son has one just like mine. His has worked great also. he bought his on advice from my brother, and so did I . I had been heating the house with a wood furnace, or i should say wood eatin monster. Nuff about that peice of chit. Ive gone to a jotul in my house mainly because Im tired of putting 8 full cord a year thru the furnace. I dont really see a difference between the DW and the yotul in terms of ease of use, and heat out put versus wood consumed. The only work Ive had to do on the DW is to remove the top twice and clean out the air chambers on the side. I can build a fire, get her going and at some point depending on wood and other factors shut the bypass and hear a big woosh, When it does that I assume the ever burn system is running. It will run for 8 hrs and keep it 72 on average maybe 6 hrs when its 10 or lower out side. The head wood guy Chris I think is his name said that they take a little getting used to as far as the operation of the stove. I found mine very easy and user friendly. Maybe they work good in some applications and chity in others, dont know. Maybe Im lucky
 
just took this photo a few minutes ago
 

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Yeah...the whoosh. I would hear thattoo, but it was short lived. Have you actually looked at your chimney outside after this thing's had the damper closed for say 30 minutes or an hour? I'm curious to see if you have, and if you have seen lots of smoke coming out. Mine would heat just fine, but it smoke like crazy, which it's not supposed to do.
 
Hanko - interesting - your chimney represents almost the perfect one - as per EPA - about 15 feet tall or so straight up insulated (or at least in a heated area).

So I do think we are/were on the right track in terms of the chimney/wood/operator having something to do with results. This stove just has a narrower window of the "slop" in the system that it will accept. Over the years I have sold stoves, I have found other stoves that are this way...especially in the early days of clean burning. I remember a Canadian model that would pretty much shut down when you closed the loading door (that's how strong of a chimney it needed), but if and when we got it going it would definitely burn the gases.

My hope is that the next generation of stoves are tested heavily by the makers in real world situations - with real cordwood of various species. I would rather see higher GPH in the EPA test (which has little effect on the real world burning), than see stoves with bragging rights which are less flexible.

On "paper" the downdraft system is a good one, and I was always impressed with my Acclaim(s). When these new ones came out, I was excited.....then the reports from the field came in. I do think it is like anything else, many happy people are not on the internet complaining about their units. But at the same time, I would wager that overall satisfaction with the larger units (large dutch, encore, defiant NC) is lower than with the cat models.
 
Its not a smoker, and when i cleaned my chimney last spring (07) I found no measurable creasote. when its idleing I run 350 stove top and about the same on the stove pipe, single wall. same for Jr and bro. we are burnning good dry wood. I should also note i have an outside combustion air sourse. My shop is spray foam dense pack insulation and its very tight. found that out the first fire last year. pulled a negitive in the shop and filled the place up with smoke
 
I have a better draft in the shop tha I do in the house(oslo) the house has a 90 in the pipe thru the wall and into a tee than straight up 17 ft or so. I expected a better draft but it also might be the stove, dont n=know. I does pull good whenI get it going, but the mornings are jump start with the ash door trick. the DW hauls down and rocks with no help.
 
I have an late 80's Vermont downdrafter wood stove. about a 50,000 Btu. takes 28" sticks. All I ever did was to replace the firebricks and heat shields. Stove works great. Runs constantly during winter months. Cuts down on the LP usage.

Firewoodguy.com
 
Hanko said:
Mine is a dutchwest medium non cat. I bought it in the fall of 2006 when my new 1500 sq ft shop was built. Doesnt matter, but I have gel filled electric back up in case I have to go away, but back to the stove. The chimney is staright up 16 ft. (two story building). I was imeadiatly impressed by the heat out put versus wood usage. I burnt 2 full cord last year and probably a face cord over that this year. we have had a tuff winter here in Michigan. I want to add that the reason I bought this stove is the fact my brother has and older cat model that has worked good for him. My son has one just like mine. His has worked great also. he bought his on advice from my brother, and so did I . I had been heating the house with a wood furnace, or i should say wood eatin monster. Nuff about that peice of chit. Ive gone to a jotul in my house mainly because Im tired of putting 8 full cord a year thru the furnace. I dont really see a difference between the DW and the yotul in terms of ease of use, and heat out put versus wood consumed. The only work Ive had to do on the DW is to remove the top twice and clean out the air chambers on the side. I can build a fire, get her going and at some point depending on wood and other factors shut the bypass and hear a big woosh, When it does that I assume the ever burn system is running. It will run for 8 hrs and keep it 72 on average maybe 6 hrs when its 10 or lower out side. The head wood guy Chris I think is his name said that they take a little getting used to as far as the operation of the stove. I found mine very easy and user friendly. Maybe they work good in some applications and chity in others, dont know. Maybe Im lucky

You see it's that works good in some applications and not in others that is the problem. How'd you feel if you were one of the folks that purchased one of these THINGS for 2400+ and it didn't work, and they didn't help you and customer service didn't know about the unit or call you back: would you think it was like sliced bread then? if you think about it, do you think that its good that it is so sensitive that it doesn't work for many and does work for many others? Exactly how long would a manufacturer of cars last if many of their cars didn't work for the customer, they didn't know why and didn't return calls?

Yeah, I better go back to my corner, I think I'm upset about getting ripped off by them again. They can go to: someplace......
 
wondering why yours didnt work? any details or thoughts. Im thinking maybe its something not at fault with the stove.
 
I think it was draft sensitivity and that the secondary burn is a bear to maintain under most conditions. The chimney I installed it in was an 8x12 clay flue. Now, this same chimney was just perfect for the Defiant and Encore CAT stoves. When I put the Defiant non-CAT stove in it worked when it wanted to. I could get the secondary burn to engage, but it would often stall and I would have to constantly watch it to make sure it remained engaged. Further, my chimney was creosote free after 20 years of burning, within 3 months of installing the CAT stove, I had a buildup of nice, shiny, creosote deposits. That was when I got rid of it and swore off VC because they are not the company they were. So, I installed the Mansfield and relined the chimney (now a problem) and have had no problem since. With the Mansfield I load it, let it go for a while, damp it down; secondaries engaged: no problem. And, many other stoves will perform the same way: but not the Everburn and like stoves.
I might have been able to get the Defiant Everburn to work somewhat reliabley, but who wants somewhat?
 
I just caught this video of a Sedore stove which seems to be a nice smokeless top loader. Although someone needs to show the guy in the video how to install stovepipe. He runs his as a multi-fuel.
 
Actually I like the big black splat at the end of the video.
Kinda looks like a bunch of creosote exploded. :gulp:
 
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