Draft Problems Again. :-(

[Lcback]

Last winter I had some problems starting fires. And would always get smoke coming back in the house. I chalked it up to wet wood. An old falling apart furnace.
So I got ahead. My silver maple is 16% average on a fresh split. My cherry is 20% average on a fresh split. I got a new furnace. A DS Machine ecmoiser. I know it's not EPA. That's not my issue. That's not what I want to talk about here. When it was in the 50s I went ahead and lit it. No problems. Now today I go and try to use it in the morning it's 29 outside. I open the furnace door and can feel the cold draft blowing in the house. Ugh. So I attempt to light it and sure enough smoke blows out of every opening and intake on the thing. Ugh. So now I'm mad. I spent all this money. All this time on wood and it's still not working like I want. So yeah I'm mad. Even worse next week I start job. Number 2. Evening shift. So now I will be gone 14 hours a day. Finding the time to fix the thing so my wife can run it isn't going to be easy.
What do you experts suggest.
It is a 6" triple wall insulated class A chimney 18' tall. I have two 45's into a tee then straight up 18'. For some reason when it's cold out I can feel the air blowing down the chimney. I have checked the inside and outside sections. They are still clean and clear.

Any suggestions? I don't have much money to be sticking extra sections on top. Or buying tools right now. Hence the extra job. That's why I'm asking you guys so I don't spend money for nothing.

P.S. I have a fireplace insert upstairs it's an 8" double wall chimney. Never had a draft problem with it.


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[JRHAWK9]

Where it projects above the roof, the chimney should be at least 3 feet tall, and at least 2 feet higher than anything within 10 feet of it-including other buildings, trees, etc.

 

[mike van]

Can you post any pics of the house, terrain, etc? Might help -

 

[Ruben_21]

Im by no means a expert, but ill give you my two sense. Ive dealt with similar issue. So yes as stated above you can increase hight to get better draft. A few other things to keep in mind, when trying to get your fire started you want equal air pressure meaning you don't want things in the houes on or running that pull air, such as kitchen stove vent, bathroom vent or clothes dryer. Ive started cracking my window cloest to the stove to equalize the air pressure thus getting rid of back draft. You can also close the room of, turn on a fan which creates pressure in the room and forces smoke up and out the flue. These are things that have worked for me. Good luck.

And once its going you can close window and use vents etc. Shouldn't have any issues.

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[Lcback]

I can do those in a little while. In the mean time I may have a clue. Once I calmed down. I came down and opened the door. No more smoke in it. And the cold air didn't feel like it was coming down the chimney. So I said screw it im going to try again. Fire lit fine no smoke in the house.
So what was different? I opened the window in the basement and the door to the garage before I went upstairs. Is it possible my basement is too tight? A way to measure that?


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[velvetfoot]

I have down draft issues even with tall chimney upstairs and downstairs.
It happens when they've gone stone cold. If you don't let it go stone cold, maybe you won't have the problem.

When my insert goes stone cold, I crack open a window burn some newspaper on top of the wood load to get things going in the right direction.

When starting the pellet boiler from stone cold, and it's stone cold now because of fuel prices, I put a bag over the baro damper until it gets going. There already is a draft inducer fan built into the boiler, but the baro damper is down stream, so some smoke comes out from that, but again, only when it's stone cold.

I think if I were you, I'd look into a draft inducer that fits into the pipe in the basement, and for now, don't let it get stone cold.
PS: I saw a draft inducer in operation once, and it was slick. It didn't always operate, just for a while.

 

[velvetfoot]

Sure, just keep a window in the basement open all the time. Might get a little cool though.

 

[Lcback]

Sure, just keep a window in the basement open all the time. Might get a little cool though.

That's I was wondering. Do I need to keep it open all the time? Is there some sort of pressure equalizer you can put in the wall to keep it equal all the time?




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[Lcback]

PS: I saw a draft inducer in operation once, and it was slick. It didn't always operate, just for a while.

I have seen those before online. I may get one if I can't get this figured out another way.
The pipe will be going stone cold. Fuel prices are low and it's not that cold. I just wanted to play with my machine and I heard the lp kick on a time or two over night so I thought it would be good to get the house hot and then let it go.
I


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[Ruben_21]

No, just on start up. I added a line to my original post. And FYI, having to crack your window just indicates the rest of your home is pretty air tight, pretty sure thats a good thing.

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[Lcback]

I found this thing on sears website. Not sure how efficient it is or if it keeps my hot air in. Or if it's just like an open window. Not much literature on the website.
http://m.sears.com/copperfield-make...gclid=CNyiipHtkdACFUdZhgodqG0GEA&gclsrc=aw.ds


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[Lcback]

Here are some pictures.


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[STIHLY DAN]

That is perfectly normal. Cold air falls and you have pressure outside. Ever hear the news of a low pressure system moving in. A hair dryer in the fire box for a few minute will work well, or on cold start up crack the door or window the pressure will equalize immediately, start your fire wait 5 minutes then shut the door/window. you now have draft and will until the unit gets stone cold again.

 

[Lcback]

That is perfectly normal. Cold air falls and you have pressure outside. Ever hear the news of a low pressure system moving in. A hair dryer in the fire box for a few minute will work well, or on cold start up crack the door or window the pressure will equalize immediately, start your fire wait 5 minutes then shut the door/window. you now have draft and will until the unit gets stone cold again.

Yeah I have heard of that. Guess it makes sense never heard of anyone else with smoke blowing back in the basement though. I'll try to equalize the pressure before I light the fire then close the window before I leave for work. I kind of panicked this morning. I figured if it's hard to start at 29 degrees I'm doomed.
I still have some stuff to get worked out with the furnace. But it seems draft is something I will have to fight.


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[STIHLY DAN]

Its not your furnace. This is a typical basement issue. This morning mine was +.01" wc That means reverse draft. a couple minutes after lighting the kindling it was at -.06"wc. You will be fine.

 

[Lcback]

Thank you very much. I'll probably be taking some pictures of the. New furnace and making a thread. If nothing else people can see how the ecomiser is put together.


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[STIHLY DAN]

That would be great, always good to get more info and diversity. Looking forward to it.

 

[mike van]

Only thing I see in the pic is the chimney cap, that'll slow up a draft some - Even more if the screen in it starts to coat over with a little soot.

 

[DoubleB]

P.S. I have a fireplace insert upstairs it's an 8" double wall chimney. Never had a draft problem with it.

That might be the problem. Looks like your furnace chimney is being a cold air intake for your upstairs fireplace. When you start your furnace, your fireplace chimney has a good 10 ft more of warm air (surrounded by the interior of your house) than your furnace chimney, thereby you have 10 ft of warm air trying to pull cold air from your chimney into your furnace.

I'd tinker around a bit, without fires, with your furnace and fireplace at the same time to test the above. For example, when your wife opens the fireplace door, does the cold air come into the furnace any faster? I think you'll find some clues.

 

[brenndatomu]

A hair dryer in the fire box for a few minute will work well, or on cold start up crack the door or window the pressure will equalize immediately, start your fire wait 5 minutes then shut the door/window. you now have draft and will until the unit gets stone cold again.

Exactly what I was thinking.
My sister has a ranch house with a Tundra furnace in the basement and a chimney just like yours...oh, and a fireplace/woodstove upstairs . She fights reverse draft on cold start ups of the Tundra, I told her to open the firebox door for 15-20 minutes before lighting the fire. If that doesn't work (it usually does) then a hair dryer in the center HE tube for a minute gets things goin the right way (that works every time)
As warm as its been, all but the best case scenarios (chimney wise) will likely have some tough "cold start" issues...when you are burning full time during the winter you probably will have no problem. But if you do, I still have a couple Dwyer manometers for sale (in the for sale forum here) if you decide you want to troubleshoot with some hard numbers...

 

[STIHLY DAN]

I was going to suggest he contact you about the dwyer but i figured you would be sold out. The one I bought from you is working great BTW.

 

[Lcback]

Exactly what I was thinking.
My sister has a ranch house with a Tundra furnace in the basement and a chimney just like yours...oh, and a fireplace/woodstove upstairs . She fights reverse draft on cold start ups of the Tundra, I told her to open the firebox door for 15-20 minutes before lighting the fire. If that doesn't work (it usually does) then a hair dryer in the center HE tube for a minute gets things goin the right way (that works every time)
As warm as its been, all but the best case scenarios (chimney wise) will likely have some tough "cold start" issues...when you are burning full time during the winter you probably will have no problem. But if you do, I still have a couple Dwyer manometers for sale (in the for sale forum here) if you decide you want to troubleshoot with some hard numbers...

I will be sure to keep that in mind. If I have any more problems once things get going full time. I do like having tools and real numbers to go off.


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[maple1]

A commonly recommended way to get your chimney pumping in these draft conditions (it is your chimney, not the furnace), is once you get your fire built & ready to light, get a loose crumple of newspaper in there on top, close to the firebox outlet. Light it first. After a few moments, heat should be heading up the chimney. Then you light your main fire. I never had reverse draft with mine, but I light every fire that way anyway.

Outside conditions can affect things too - mainly prevailing wind & direction, even air pressure. Usually cracking a basement window helps - but you will have to experiment & determine whether it should be a window facing the prevailing wind, or on the opposite side of the house. Winds & rooflines can do weird things, creating high & low pressure areas around the outside of your house. And if the upstairs appliance isn't being used, the draft and/or damper openings should likely be closed.

 

[brenndatomu]

A commonly recommended way to get your chimney pumping in these draft conditions (it is your chimney, not the furnace), is once you get your fire built & ready to light, get a loose crumple of newspaper in there on top, close to the firebox outlet. Light it first. After a few moments, heat should be heading up the chimney

This ^ ^ ^ doesn't work at my sisters place...only gets you smoke and burnt paper bits floatin around the house. I have a feeling he has the same issue as her, and it is not just no draft, it is "open the firebox door and you can feel the cold breeze coming out"

 

[maple1]

Huh, OK, will take your word for that one.

We have a wood stove in a building here, that will do that sometimes, and the paper trick always seems to do the job. Sometimes it takes more paper than others, sometimes you have to do it twice - but it usually gets things going without too much if any smoke & paper coming back.

Goes to show the wide variability to this science we're practicing, I guess.