DYI 6” liner for a Quadrafire 3100i

[Jerry_NJ]

I am considering having a Quadrafire 3100-I fireplace insert installed in my existing brick fireplace. The fireplace flue is a 12"x12" tile lined masonry structure 31 feet long. The dealer has quoted $450 for insulation and refers to a NAPA Code requiring it. From my perspective the stated benefit of requiring less heat up the chimney (i.e., more in the house) to keep the chimney hot enough to discourage the formation of creosote would justify the insulation. I haven't however seen any discussion of the pros and cons of such insulation. Any input would be welcome.

Another cost item that seems high is $850 for the 31 foot stainless steel liner (an top, I assume). That may be an error in the quote I got and an item I'll clear up before signing any purchase agreement. Any input on the full cost of stainless steel line, I don't expect to get any discount from the dealer, could be helpful. I have seen some suggestion that a price closer to $650 would be normal... i.e., on another forum a person quoted a 25' stainless steel line cost at $500.

Comments on the Quadrafire or similarly priced insterts welcome too. I plan to stop by a dealer that handles Lopi, Regency, and Jotul. I have no idea if these units are similar price, for reference the 3100-I with the large back plate and all in standard Black (no gold trim) is $2050. Plus $100 shipping. From the weight I guess the Quadrafire is steel, not cast iron. Some of the other units higher weight suggest cast iron...is one better than the other?

Thanks.

 

[jtp10181]

The 3100i is a great unit. The prices on the liners can vary greatly depending on build quality (brand) and also thickness of SS used. He is correct that the insulation is required to make the liner meet UL 1777. Only exception would be if your chimney passes a Level II inspection and meets NFPA 211 guidelines, then you could do it without the insulation.

 

[begreen]

Some of the figures you see posted here are for lighter gauge, flex liners. If the current quote is for a high-quality, heavy-gauge, rigid liner, then it doesn't sound out of line. Better to judge the overall quality of the dealer's service and product. This is often worth paying a bit more for in the long run.

All the stoves you are looking at are good stoves. Reviews for the 3100i are good, Quadrafire makes nice stoves. Regarding castiron inserts, if you look at the backside of a Jotul or Hampton you'll see a steel box behind the cast-iron front. They are also good inserts, but the castiron is front trim only.

A 31' insulated stack is likely to draw hard. Some stoves are harder to control with too strong draft. This would be a good thing to discuss with the dealer. Some stove manufacturers give specific guidelines for draft and others don't cover it at all in the manual. Jotul sets a top height of 33 ft. so it is close for that insert. The Quad 3100i manual says it was tested with a 12-14' stack and that the further the stack height and diameter vary from this the greater chance there is of performance problems. jtp is a Quad dealer and can tell you how well the 3100i does in this case. Given the tall stack, one option I'd consider is to install a 5.5" liner instead of a 6" liner.

 

[jtp10181]

We install 2700i and 3100i units all winter long. We do the occasional 25+ ft chimney and I have never had any calls on them about fire control or whatever. Most of the inserts we sell I never heard a word out of them after we are done which I assume means they are satisfied and its working good.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Thanks for the valuable inputs, I'll talk with the dealer. He and his son are both licensed and both have been to my home over the years for chimney cleaning and for the installation of a "Lock-to" damper at the top of the chimney I'm thinking about putting the 3100 in. However, I have talked only with his shop/office manager, who has been with him (may be his wife for all I know) the whole time I've hired his services, who is very knowledgeable. And since they had my chimney details of file, she was able to give me a bid for hardware and installation.

I will set up an appointment to talk with the senior owner and ask about the type of pipe he is supplying at what looks to be in the high end pricewise. I'll also ask hime about the 31 foot stack length. And I am interested in learning more about the nature of the insulation, also a high price item. It does seem strange to me that the 3100 is sold without the blower, that being an additional $265. The unit does have some extension onto the hearth, still it looks like one really needs a blower if they are to get efficiency, which is rated at 78%, not mention of needing the blower to get that number.

 

[blackgooseJT]

I've installed several dozen Quad 3100's . Never had any performance issues, but then we insulated every liner unless it was both unnecessary and impossible. We are a couple hundred miles south of you and I can tell you that a 31 ft. exterior masonry chimney here is probably going to be sluggish and non-self starting until it warms up. Often times when you have finally gotten it warmed up enough from a cold start, it has already puked back smoke. If it is an intermittent non self starter it may reverse flow as the stove cycles down. Ive found that particularly true on lower level installs in multi-story homes. Insulation makes for easier starts, and lessened liklihood of flow reversal. The 3100 is an excellent stove. Half of the units I put in went without blowers. only a couple got the blowers the following season, they just didn't need them.

Get the insulation. It's worth the extra cost. And on that stove we always cut a horseshoe shaped piece out of the seconary baffle insulation right where the vent is. otherwise under high draft conditions they could suck that blanket right up to the vent and close it off. Quad may have addressd that problem by now.

J.T. Black Goose

 

[jtp10181]

A blower doesn't change efficiency. It can reduce heat loss into the chimney and walls and also help move the heat around the room better. The unit will perform the same with or without a blower but will be more comfortable and give the perception of more heat with the blower.

The insulation is probably going to be a 1/2" ceramic wool blanket with foil on one side. You wrap that along the liner and tape down the seam. Then you put a SS mesh boot over the whole thing and band clamp the ends.

For a price comparison, we do a 25ft liner with insulation wrap for around $1000. This is using a lower cost liner kit from Simpson Duravent. Not the cheapest out there but definitely a lower cost liner.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

jtp, thanks, I took a look on the web for material price and for rigid 6" in either 2' or 4' lengths (didn't see anything longer, but 8 or 10 foot length would seem to be to be better, fewer joints. Anyway, for 31' Simpson $1,200, Super Pro $1,125, Metal fab similar to Simpson, Selkirk $975. All are stainless steel, no special attention paid to gauge. So, my dealer's bid of $850 for pipe, much include top/kit/elbows... he knows what he's doing, isn't so high priced after all.

 

[jtp10181]

Well for $850 he is probably using flex not rigid. A medium to high end flex liner kit for 31ft would cost about that much.

We do the rigid liners with 25ft for about $1200 or so using the Simpson DuraLiner, and that includes the insulation because its double wall pipe with an insulation wrap built in.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

I'll need to discuss further with the dealer. I assume flex pipe isn't as "good" or lasting as solid, and as the proposal is to put in insulation at $450 (so the total is $1,300 for pipe and insulation) that is poured in (assumed to dry to a solid mass), I'm concerned about the life of the liner....it would be a major job to replace the liner when it "wears out". I'd assume a flexible liner also has ridges all the way up which would be catch areas for creosote. Also, if one wanted to go back to the original open fireplace it couldn't be done by simply removing the liner, it is now part of the chimney, "glued in" by the insulation. I would not want to convert back to an open fireplace having been happy with an insert for the past 20 years. But, I'll not be here for many more years and the next owner may view my chimney arrangement a negative.

How long are liners supposed to last? Lest say being used for 1 to 2 cords per year. Would a solid liner last longer than a flexible liner?

 

[Jerry_NJ]

I'm still in the decision phase on having a Quadrafire 3100 Insert installed in my fireplace. It will be connected to the top of the existing masonry chimney by a 31' run of 6" stainless.

From the 3100 manual it looks like a reasonable job to remove a few pieces inside the 3100 to gain direct access to the flue and to then run a liner cleaning brush up from the insert end. Anyone have any experience doing this? Cleaning has been quoted to me at $175, so I could easily pay for the cleaning equipment in one cleaning.

I am a "hard core' DYI'er, but I'll not be going to the roof of my two story house to do any chimney cleaning.

 

[BrotherBart]

Jerry why don't you call somebody like these guys:

http://www.fluetechinc.com/CastinPlaceLiningSystems1-866-358-3832.asp

Get an estimate for a poured in place liner for that chimney. It shouldn't cost much more, if any, than a SS liner and poured in insulation for that chimney and would be better than either a flex or rigid pipe and insulation.

 

[jtp10181]

You take out three Alan screws and remove three manifold tubes. You slide the baffle down and the insulation comes with it. Done. Do in reverse to put it back together.

 

[BrotherBart]

Best way to visualize it is to go into the kitchen and open the oven door. Squat down in front of it and imagine that in the back top of the oven is a 31' pipe running straight up.

Figure out how you are going to push a six inch stiff brush up that pipe and get it back down working in a space 2/3 the size of that oven. And clean the creosote off the plugged up chimney cap in the process.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Thanks, it may be I've not made the context of my question clear: I am considering having a fireplace insert installed, this requires a directly connected 6" stainless steel chimney, and as I have an existing chimney, it will be a chimney liner. The insulation is also needed, as I understand it, to keep the steel liner hot even at low fires to resist the formation of creosote. That said, there seems to be a lot of advantage to installing an insulation blanket...especially if one ever wants to return the fireplace to it original "open fireplace" condition.

My Quadrafire dealer/installer says he will use a ThreMix pour-in insulation...this solidifies, as I understand it, so that any future work on the liner may be impossible, e.g., repair/replace the liner or even return the chimney to its original masonry-only tile lined flue (13"x13" in my case).

 

[Jerry_NJ]

jtp, thanks again for much help as I work my way through this insert decision process. I assume the many fires one has doesn't make it too difficult to remove the three Allen screws.

BrotherBart: Ok, doesn't sound easy.... but I'd work pretty hard for $175. I assume, but do not know, that the rod used to push the brush up the chimney is flexible, yet stiff enough to push, i.e., not a case of "pushing on a rope".

I just noticed the last time I had my fireplace swept, I happened to be home, that it was all done from below: push a brush up the 13"x13" tile lined chimney while the helper was holding the shop vacuum to catch falling powder (creosote, guess that's what the powder is, creosote that hasn't (yet) turned into a black glaze). Thus I though: "why not do that myself?" Of course, this was done working into a fireplace opening large enough to sit in. I'd guess my fireplace has is at least 12 cubic feet, the Quadrafire 3100-I is 2 cubic foot. Of course if working through the insert (seems possible removing a few pieces, jtp's note) one can remove the insert, it weighs only 333 pounds (ouch), suppose that's with the fire brick in. Still, this would not address direct attention to the cap, but so what? Do I risk a "cap fire" if it accumulates some creosote? To the credit of the professional cleaner, and I am satisfied with their work, and in fact find them very friendly, helpful and honest, they do make a trip to the top of the chimney, 31' up, and check it out, e.g., spotted some cracks in the apron that needed attention, and the last time to install a "Lock-top" damper. This I had done hoping it would stop the "back-flow" of air that was (is) bringing old fire smell into the house.

 

[jtp10181]

Amazingly enough I have worked on stoves that are many years old and the alan screws still come out with only a little bit of force. The screws are SS and they are going into some sort of regular steel. They must not react with each other like some metals do which can make screws get stuck.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

jtp (is it ok if I drop the 10181, or is that the important part : >) ) Thanks, I've moved another step toward the decision. I have an appointment talk by telephone with my Quadrafire dealer, he's located about 25 miles from here, so costly to "drop in", gas prices being what they are. He's got lots of experience installing these inserts and I'm sure can put to rest some of my remaining concerns/questions.

I still lean toward a insulation blanket, over the TherMix his store manager has quoted, as the blanket makes it possible to replace the the liner in future years, or to return the fireplace to its original condition. This is one of the big remaining open issues in my mind. This coupled with the need to prevent old smoke smell from the existing chimney entering the house. He is coming out May 1, to do a roto-cleaning, I'm thinking do that and see if it helps reduce the objectionable odor, if it does TherMix may not be necessary...or maybe it isn't the answer anyway for the odor.

With heating oil at $4 I think there will be a run on these high efficiency wood heaters this fall, so I need to decide before the prices jump.

 

[jtp10181]

We only use the insulation blanket wrap so I don't know anything about the TherMix stuff. I think one thing that would help, if not eliminate, the odor is to install a bottom block off plate that is well sealed. This should stop all air passage between the old chimney and the house.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

jtp, boy we're keeping a couple of threads going, or your valuable input is keeping them going.

Stopping air flow was my first attempt, I had a Lock-Top installed last year and while it seemed to help a some, the odor still surfaced when the outside temperature goes up and the humidity goes up. I concluded that is because the damper at the top can do a great job blocking air flow from outside down the chimney, but it does leave the chimney inside the house, so any air exchange will be smelled. The chimney is brick, so the temperature inside the chimney changes drastically when the sun comes around in the afternoon and shines directly on the bricks. Yes, a block where the old damper was could be the answer if it is air tight, or nearly so. I discuss that further with my dealer.

 

[BrotherBart]

The poured in place liners are six inches. You just connect the insert to it with an adapter.

Will the mods please merge these threads!

 

[begreen]

Merged threads to one topic for both liner and insulation requirements.

 

[Jerry_NJ]

Not sure how the merge of two threads reads, but I'll post this update for any who are still following my decision process.

I talked with the Qudrafire dealer/installer this morning, he clarified that his bid is for a continuous, no joints, flexible stainless steel liner that is guaranteed for "life". His price is for a blanket wrap, saying with a 6" liner and a 13"x13" flue the cost of TherMix or similar would be much higher. As for my concern about elimination of the current odor problem, he thinks power/roto-cleaning will address the removal of the source of the smell. I did discuss with him the installation of a blocking plate at the location of the damper to block air, such as is needed with TherMix, he was not specific, but I think I'll peruse that with him further, and the idea of installing that with something like furnace cement to seal off all air flow seems right to me, and is suggested (looking back) by jtp...

 

[begreen]

Here's a link to some wiki articles on block-off plates:

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/Why_damper_seal_is_needed/