Econoburn fan controls issue -

[b33p3r]

Stand-by. I have recently emailed Econoburn about fan control issues and 20* difference between aquastat and thermo-couple temps. These have been my 2 biggest issues with my 150. I will "Honestly" post any and all recommendations from econoburn. I know there are some homemade fixes and there is also a new controller to correct these issues. However, I will not make any corrections without documentation from the manufacturer. More to come.
I will say that my econoburn has heated my house/DHW reliably since 12/10/2010. It just hasn't done as advertised or at half the efficiency as competitors.
More to come on customer satisfaction..........................

 

[SnowTraveler]

Let's be careful to not make this a bashing thread, these are good units, not great. I am on my fourth year, but when mine is worn out (I figure another four years) I am buying the unit Piker sells.

 

[goosegunner]

Let's be careful to not make this a bashing thread, these are good units, not great. I am on my fourth year, but when mine is worn out (I figure another four years) I am buying the unit Piker sells.

I would hope they last more than 8 years.

I could see having a unit that is easier to clean.

I do appreciate that the econoburns are made in the States though.

Gg

 

[willworkforwood]

Stand-by. I have recently emailed Econoburn about fan control issues .............

Do you know if you frequently get voltage from your power company that's less than the typical variance, or perhaps something in your house with a huge draw that might affect the voltage? You apparently are one of the only EB owners who frequently gets the humming fan that doesn't come back on. I remember Piker said he had at least one customer in the same boat, but I don't recall anyone else on the forum with this happening often. Mine had it occur exactly 3 times - once per year. I've had this idea that the humming / not-coming-back-on fan is caused by voltage that's too low (at the moment the fan needs to come back on). One thing that caused me to start thinking this way is what happened when I tested out my 6500K generator. When I tried the EB, I immediately noticed that the fan started oscillating. Being concerned about killing the controller, I shut it down and haven't tried it again. Nothing else in my house (including electronics) appeared to be affected by the generator, so it was apparent how sensitive the EB fan/controller is to a less-than-perfect power supply. Is a power quality issue possible in your case?

 

[b33p3r]

I am not by any means trying to turn this into a bashing session. The biggest reason I bought this unit is because it was made in the U.S.A. I have never owned a foreign car and I have no plans to ever buy one. That should tell you where I'm at with American Made products. That said, this unit has saved me at a minimum $1500.00 this winter and this winter was colder than usual this year.
The structural integrity of the unit will be decided over the years. I am confident it will serve me well. I'm no expert but it does seem extremely well built. My concern at this point is the control scheme. I am an industrial electrical/controls technician for the last 12 years. Although I'm new to the nimbus board, I'm not new to the troubleshooting of such systems. Within the first week of burning I knew I had an issue because I stood by the boiler and watched it cycle. The fan does not perform like it was designed to. This has been proven and confirmed by another post on this site.
The only way I could confidently burn this unit through the winter was to adjust the temp settings so the fan always ran on high or off. It served me well heat wise but I know I deal with more creosote and possibly less efficiency than designed.
As far as voltage swings, I have no idea. I do not monitor my voltages into my house. But since many econoburn users have replied with the same issues on previous posts I'm pretty confident I'm not an isolated issue.
All that said, I'm totally ok with a product having a bug or two. I'm not OK with buying a new car and the dealer won't try to remedy the problems unless you make his life miserable.
Econoburn immediately called my house yesterday, but I wasn't available at the time. I did email them before posting here, and they emailed me a new wiring change for the Nimbus board and asked me to contact them by phone. I haven't given the diagram a good look yet but will in the next few days. I guess my biggest gripe is Why they didn't email me the updates before I pestered them? I know they know they have issues. They have all my purchase and warranty info? Why wait for the customer to get pissed?
I will wait again for them to contact me since they want to talk to me. I'll let you all know whether they do or not.
To me, Customer service is what makes a company good or great.

 

[rkusek]

I bought an EKO 3hrs ago because of price but wouldn't have hesistated to buy an EB but I believe they were quite a bit higher then but probably not as much now. I too like to buy American if price is not too much of a factor. The quality structure wise seems to be very solid on the EBs and better than the EKO. It does appear the the control scheme/electronics may be lacking however. After reading the post on this problem from a few weeks ago, it seems like they could solve their problems by changing the controls to give the fan 1 second of full power before slowing it down. Does seem like it should be hard to fix. I think way too often companies try to farm out all their software needs instead of having staff in house that could make all the proper changes. The end up paying 2 to 3 times more and end up with a mediocre product. In addition it becomes too expensive to scrap and migrate to something better.

 

[willworkforwood]

.... it seems like they could solve their problems by changing the controls to give the fan 1 second of full power before slowing it down ....

Actually the controller does work that way (when functioning as designed), in fact there is a full-power start-up of 2 seconds before it steps down. The problem that we are discussing is when the controller normal operation malfunctions - for some (like me) just very occasionally, while for others (like B33) it happens frequently and is a RPITA. That's why I was asking about his power quality. The inconsistency just doesn't make any sense to me - electrical devices should work all the time until they break and then stop working. So it seems a reasonable possibility that if the line voltage is below a certain point, it could be the cause of something designed for variable power operation to have failure at start-up. With regard to bashing EB; I am VERY happy with my boiler, and also have been very pleased with the support I've received from Dale at the factory. But, if I were having the problems that B33 is, I would be upset and looking for answers, just like he is.

 

[b33p3r]

I looked at the diagram Dale sent and he wants me to run the neutral of the nimbus through the aquastat instead of the fan output. In essence when the aquastat opens, it will shut the nimbus off. We had this discussion here and that will work. However I'd be more comfortable switching the power side of the nimbus for safety reasons. If I switch the neutral side of the board and the neutral ever shorts out between the nimbus and the aquastat, the neutral will still be satisfied with a path back to source via the ground and continue to run basically bypassing the aquastat. Therefor the aquastat will never shut it down. The system will still have the internal high temp shut down however. If the power side were used and it shorted out, it would blow the fuse and the unit wouldn't run. Safer and you'd know about the problem sooner.
Dale called again yesterday but again my work schedule prevented me from talking to him. I'll try to call him back today.
I don't know why my fan is more of an issue than anyone else. At least now I have a manufacturer suggested fix. That's all I wanted for warranty purposes. I'm good with any rewiring they want me to do as long as they approve the wiring changes.
I'll probably make the wiring change during the shoulder season here in March so I can give it a test before shutting down for the summer. I'll post back with the results.

 

[b33p3r]

Almost forgot. I am also one of the only EB users that has a huge temperature difference between the digital display and the analog gauge on the side of the boiler. 20* + difference. So when the digital display says the temp is around 195*-200*, the analog display is reading 175*. The aquastat setting agrees with the analogue gauge. So if the aquastat is set at 175* and it gets satisfied and shuts down the fan, the analog guage is at 175* but the digital is at 195*ish. When I do wiring change, I'll give all the wiring connections a real good check. Didn't want to dig too much during the main heating season. After all this unit wasn't broke. It was heating my house just fine.

 

[SnowTraveler]

B33, the analog combo temp/pressure gauge was very inaccurate from day 1 on my EB. I don't use it. I found the digital controller to be dead on accurate, just slower responding than my other "wetted" instrumentation on my system, this due to the surface mounting of the TC on top of the boiler plating. I put TC's in T'wells on my loops and they work the nuts. I also have a Rosemount pressure transmitter for boiler system pressure indication, it does not match the analog, and I KNOW the transmitter is accurate. Just an FYI on that gauge....

 

[willworkforwood]

.... I'll probably make the wiring change during the shoulder season here in March so I can give it a test before shutting down for the summer. I'll post back with the results.

All EB owners who have had the humming fan issue (regardless of how infrequent) will be looking forward to your findings on this wiring change. Since this happens so often with your boiler, it should be the perfect test candidate. In early January, Piker had posted good early results with one of his customer boilers that he rewired, but nothing since then. Hopefully he will follow-up on how that one worked out. I hope this change takes care of your problem!

 

[b33p3r]

I spoke with Dale today. He said they have been testing the fix for a few months now with good results. He didn't want to roll out the fix prematurely. He wanted to be certain no other issues surfaced before he rolled it out to everyone. He is sending me a fresh Nimbus board and FAN capacitor. He wants to rule out the capacitor being weak since this boiler sat for 2 years prior to me buying it(he ran the serial numbers and found that out).
So as soon as I receive those components, I got the go ahead to make the wiring change. He asked me to post back with my results/watchouts so he can make sure the wiring change is user friendly.
I'm feeling much better about econoburn at this time.

 

[Gary_602z]

It sounds like they are working with you to make things right, that is always good!

Gary

 

[b33p3r]

Snow Traveler, The difference with my gauges is the aquastat(probe in well) and the analog gauge are dead on with each other. Also the temp gauge on my indoor boiler is also dead on with the WB analog and aquastat. The digital is the only temp gauge reading 20* above? I'll get through my fan issues and then work on my temp readings. The temp readings don't hurt the performance. I just have to set the desired temps on the tc-33 and the aquastat so everything is happy.
Gary, Yes it is nice to see they are taking care of my issues. It sounds like they always had intentions to do so but were waiting for good results before telling me the fix. I guess they could have told me that originally but all looks good at this point. I guess I'm just impatient.

 

[Duetech]

I used to work with a company that built infant monitoring systems (for SIDS) back in the 80's. FDA put a lot of testing constraints on the mfg but to good purpose (like 72 hour alarm and 20% above normal heat operating temperature board tests). All their assembly components had to be in +/- .5 to 1% spec's. Occasionally a board would fail the test simply because of a cold solder joint and all the boards were soldered on a wave solder processor so there was no "employee oops" factor for reason of failure. Your temp variance could be something as simple to fix as a bad solder joint (which may or may not have conductivity yet not as per design intentions). Elcetric motors with capacitor start are known to hum when the capacitor is weak or fails (low system supply voltage and a component +/- 10 to 20% functionality at time of motor initiation (with the 2 sec. "power back") could be all you need to cause the motor to hum. Since you are getting a new board it is kind of moot now but I would suggest a new motor capacitor with a more precise +/- % rating. I bought an EKO when I purchased my boiler because Econoburn was in limited supply and out of my price range for purchase/delivery.

 

[b33p3r]

Thanks Cave,
I will definately give everything a good look when I open it up for the wiring change, board swap etc etc. The capacitor being weak makes alot of sense also for the fan issue. I know caps don't age well when idle, tend to dry up, so since this unit was made nearly 3 years before I started running it..........could be why I see more fan problems than everyone else. We'll find out.

 

[Fred61]

Tell me where I'm going wrong here because I don't know squat about electric motors and should probably keep my nose out of this discussion. Doesn't any capacitor start motor have some sort of centrifugal switch? If not, what activates and de-activates the firing of the capacitor. I have had starting problems in the past with electric motors (not in heating systems) that were caused by defective or broken centrifugal switches that had a perfectly adequate capacitor.
On my EKO, I have the speed reduced to 50% or 60% (don't remember which now because I've fiddled with it so many times) and the fan is pretty lethargic upon start because the voltage is so low.

 

[willworkforwood]

I spoke with Dale today. He said they have been testing the fix for a few months now with good results. He didn't want to roll out the fix prematurely. He wanted to be certain no other issues surfaced before he rolled it out to everyone. He is sending me a fresh Nimbus board and FAN capacitor. He wants to rule out the capacitor being weak since this boiler sat for 2 years prior to me buying it(he ran the serial numbers and found that out). ....

B33, After reading what Cave2k wrote about capacitors, I'm thinking that might be the real cause of your problems. But I'm also thinking that if you do everything (rewiring, Nimbus, capacitor) at the same time, there will be no way of knowing exactly what corrected the problem (assuming of course that it does get fixed). I know it would mean extra time for you, but how about replacing just the capacitor first? If nothing good happens, then the Nimbus; and finally the wiring fix as the third try. If the new capacitor did fix your fan problem, there would be an incentive to experiment with the more precise +/- % rating capacitors that Cave mentioned. It would be great outcome if we find out that a better capacitor can eliminate the humming fan completely for all EB owners. But, you're in the drivers seat here, and please report your findings, regardless of how you do the work.

 

[Duetech]

Voltage supply is what gives capacitor motors the "surge" current for starting but capacitors do come in varying tolerance percentages (some would equate that to measured production quality). If at the time a motor tries to start there is a low supply voltage and the capacitor is faulty it may not build up to the needed "jump start" voltage and when the voltage is then reduced as with the EB (2 sec) for slower fan speeds the motor can just sit there and hum. A centrifugal swich is only useful once the motor has hit a specified rpm. I am certainly not an expert and was only relating to past experiences where I have seen motors I thought were toast hum like new with a new capacitor. Didn't mean to sound over confident.

 

[dirttracker]

Small motors like these blowers and circ pumps do not have a switch, the start capacitor is permanently connected to the motor windings (called permanent split capacitor or PSC). On larger motors (like furnace blowers, air compressors, etc) the is a start capacitor with a centrifugal switch. Larger motors may possibly also have a "run" capacitor in addition to the start capacitor. The exact arrangement depends on the torque characteristics of the motor. Capacitors are only used on single phase motors, they are not required on 3 phase motors. This is due to how the magnetic field is produced inside the motor. Most "speed control" devices used on small PSC motors decrease the voltage to the motor. This works ok, but if the voltage is reduced too far, the motor will not start. Just an observation with no real knowledge of this controller, I suspect the fan voltage is too low on start up. This is either caused by the controller providing too little voltage or by a wiring issue not allowing the voltage to get to the motor. Driving the fan with full voltage on start up may help cure the problem, in theory once the fan is spinning it can be driven much slower than it would ever get to when starting from a stop.

 

[b33p3r]

There was a major discussion in another thread and the following was the general consensus. And so far with what EB has been testing and the wire change Plker did out in the field(who is by the way still in touch with Dale at EB with results) it seems the conclusions reached in this forum were correct:
Scenario: The nimbus is sending a run signal to the fan and it is running. Then the aquastat gets satisfied and opens. This opens the output signal from the nimbus to the fan. Problem is the nimbus board is still sending the signal, it just doesn't know the signal isn't getting there. So when the aquastat closes again and lets the signal through, and if the nimbus was running fan at slow speed, the nimbus doesn't know the fan was shut down so continues to send the slow speed signal. However the fan can't get started with the low fan speed. It sits and hums(and on 2 occasions has blown my fan fuse)
Now sometimes when the aquastat closes, the temp may be low enough that the nimbus has already changed over to a high speed signal. So the high speed signal gets delivered to the fan and allows it to start.
My guess is some people don't see so much an issue as others because the aquastat temp setting and the nimbus temp settings may be matched real well. In my case, The temp reported back to the nimbus from the thermocouple is so much higher than my aquastat temp reading(+20*) I was having a hard time making them happy. So i decided to run my boiler full out or nothing to get me through the winter reliably
With the new fix, the aquastat will switch the nimbus board neutral not the output. Now when the aquastat opens it will shut down the nimbus. When it closes, the nimbus will re-energize and will now start with a 2 second high speed pulse everytime.
I may also try to get my thermocouple in a well like my aquastat or add another surface mount aquastat to match the thermocouple and keep my existing aquastat as another safety shutdown. We'll see. I also like the idea of adding a toggle switch so I can just shut the fan down during reloads so my circulators can continiue to run.

 

[Fred61]

What happens if you leave the fan running while re-loading? I always leave my fan running on my EKO when checking the fire or re-loading.

 

[b33p3r]

If the fan is active, I get a faceful of smoke. I did at least once. Are we not supposed to have to shut it down to load it?

 

[Fred61]

Dunno! The only reason I leave it running is that I have it controlled down to 50% and the starting torque is so low it bothers me to watch it slowly cranking up to speed. Smoke doesn't seem to be any worse running or not as long as I just crack open the door and allow the draft to start flowing through the bypass. I don't have a reliable means of checking my draft but all indications show that it may be a little excessive so that may be the reason I don't get that face full of smoke. What little smoke comes off the loading door is quickly eaten up by the ionizing bulb I placed above the boiler.

 

[b33p3r]

Since I run my fan on high all the time for now, that's probably why I get the facefull of smoke. Tell me more about the ioninzing bulb? Does it actuall get rid of the smoke? I do want to do something to keep it out of my lungs during reload.