Electronic Engineer Needed - Metering BTU

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Here's the deal. Metering is coming. One State has already signed it in to law, more to follow. Currently, there is no accepted or proven standard to measure or validate BTU's through a stove. I have an inside track on this. Help me get a prototype and you could be part of an interesting startup company. I have a few ideas. The track that it's going right now would involve metering auger revolutions with an encoder and then transmitting data wi-fi to a remove server for authentication. I think it should be done differently with a load sensor under the stove with heat validation. Anyone interested can PM or call, you know how to find me.
 
What is metering? It's the first I've heard of it. Please explain further if you can.
 
Hello
You need a microprocessor with an rpm tachometer. The mp must take input parameters for each stove such as the auger motor rpms for initial setup. Once you perfect a prototype it must be NFI certified and then each stove manufacturer must do their testing and approval and any mods to fit it in to their stove design. That is way to much work and politics to make any money even with any government funding! Plus getting a rep as a meter maid to boot!
 
I would expect that the reference is to thermal metering which is based on the potential to sell a thermal equivalent of SRECs (Solar Renewable Energy Credits). These in theory can be sold into the open market and purchased by utilities or other entities that need to certify that they meet renewable portfolio standards.

The process is somewhat complicated but here is my run at it. A political entity (currently a state) decides they want to force utilities or companies within the state, to use renewable power, they pass a law and force the utilities or businesses to prove that they need a certain percentage of the generation renewable. In the law there is a large penalty intentionally set high that the utility or company has to pay if they don't meet the percentage mandated by the law. The utilities or companies are unable or unwilling to install renewable generation (quite difficult to line up the renewable generation with the power demand) so they go out on the market and buy an equivalent number of SRECs for less than the large penalty. These SRECs are valuable and there is potential for abuse so there is usually third party monitoring and that third party is going to need to measure the actual output of a renewable producer. For solar this is easy, install a "revenue" meter on the output of the panels and read it once every so often and create SRECs based on the output.

Now try to apply that to thermal renewable energy, there is no good "heat meter" that could be put on the output of the wood stove or pellet stove, it would be quite difficult to figure out how much heat goes into the room versus up the stack. Thus most programs look at fuel input and assume an efficiency of the fuel input to put useful heat into a building. Unfortunately its easy to play games with fuel input if its based on receipts for bags of pellets or number of cords bought and how to handle the guy who cuts his own wood is another can of worms. Thus the opportunity is to measure actual fuel input into the stove. For wood there is no auger feed but for pellets there is. The auger approach is the simplest, assume for a given auger speed that a certain quantity of fuel goes in the stove and apply an assumed efficiency to the stove to calculate a useful btu output. The alternative concept that the OP appears to be researching is rather than measure auger input, come up with a method of weighing the stove and then calculating how much fuel is added on a continuous basis. This is particularly valuable for someone burning wood as it would account for the actual weight of wood being put in the boiler. Accounting for ash generation could be tricky but there could be a "tare" function that resets the base stove weight when the stove is not burning. There is also the fundamental problem that different pellets have different btu ratings and wood has different moisture contents. Thus there may be an incentive to run a cheaper low btu pellet as the owner would not get extra credit for high btu pellets. There would be a disincentive for wood users to burn dry wood as the wet wood is heavier and therefore they would get more credits for burning wet wood unless the assumed boiler efficiency was somehow measured with a continuous monitoring system (basically continuous CO, O2 and stack temperature measurement)

Do note for boiler systems its a heck of lot easier, measure the flowrate of water into the boiler and the inlet and outlets temps. The result of some basic math would be a thermal output that could be reported on a BTU meter and read periodically . Of course there is then a far more intense debate available on the thermal quality of these btus. Think of it this way, I come up with a way to heat 10000 pounds of water from 70 degrees to 71 degrees. I get roughly 10,000 btus credit but for most folks the 71 degree water is too cold to do much heating. The alternative is to heat 100 pound of water from 70 to 170 degrees. This is useful for those with convective or radiant heat but as far as the btu credit its the same 10,000 btus. Take this down to the con man side and a power plant has to reject heat to generate power either via a cooling tower or with river or ocean water. They are heating millions of pounds of water a couple of degrees but the water is probably 40 degrees. Thus they can claim a large credit for creating thermal energy which is basically useless, hats why they are heating up the local river or just pumping heat in the air via a cooling tower. So the law is going to have to factor in the usefulness of the BTUS generated as well as quantity. This process is ripe for political maneuvering and abuse.

Europe has a carbon credit market that runs similar to the SREC market, it has been a failure since the beginning as many folks have figured out how to game the system with far more complex logic than I laid out. New England has the REGGI carbon market for utilities which effectively is a carbon tax with some of the proceeds going back to states with the intention to support residential energy savings programs, in reality these funds have been scalped by many states for other purposes and even the renewable programs have been tainted with cronyism in many areas where politically connected suppliers get exclusive access to the funds. I expect the thermal REC market is also ripe for abuse and I expect entrepreneurs and wall street are already looking to game the system.
 
Thank you very much peakbagger for that well written explanation of a complicated subject. I learned a lot.
 
I would expect that the reference is to thermal metering which is based on the potential to sell a thermal equivalent of SRECs (Solar Renewable Energy Credits). These in theory can be sold into the open market and purchased by utilities or other entities that need to certify that they meet renewable portfolio standards.

The process is somewhat complicated but here is my run at it. A political entity (currently a state) decides they want to force utilities or companies within the state, to use renewable power, they pass a law and force the utilities or businesses to prove that they need a certain percentage of the generation renewable. In the law there is a large penalty intentionally set high that the utility or company has to pay if they don't meet the percentage mandated by the law. The utilities or companies are unable or unwilling to install renewable generation (quite difficult to line up the renewable generation with the power demand) so they go out on the market and buy an equivalent number of SRECs for less than the large penalty. These SRECs are valuable and there is potential for abuse so there is usually third party monitoring and that third party is going to need to measure the actual output of a renewable producer. For solar this is easy, install a "revenue" meter on the output of the panels and read it once every so often and create SRECs based on the output.

Now try to apply that to thermal renewable energy, there is no good "heat meter" that could be put on the output of the wood stove or pellet stove, it would be quite difficult to figure out how much heat goes into the room versus up the stack. Thus most programs look at fuel input and assume an efficiency of the fuel input to put useful heat into a building. Unfortunately its easy to play games with fuel input if its based on receipts for bags of pellets or number of cords bought and how to handle the guy who cuts his own wood is another can of worms. Thus the opportunity is to measure actual fuel input into the stove. For wood there is no auger feed but for pellets there is. The auger approach is the simplest, assume for a given auger speed that a certain quantity of fuel goes in the stove and apply an assumed efficiency to the stove to calculate a useful btu output. The alternative concept that the OP appears to be researching is rather than measure auger input, come up with a method of weighing the stove and then calculating how much fuel is added on a continuous basis. This is particularly valuable for someone burning wood as it would account for the actual weight of wood being put in the boiler. Accounting for ash generation could be tricky but there could be a "tare" function that resets the base stove weight when the stove is not burning. There is also the fundamental problem that different pellets have different btu ratings and wood has different moisture contents. Thus there may be an incentive to run a cheaper low btu pellet as the owner would not get extra credit for high btu pellets. There would be a disincentive for wood users to burn dry wood as the wet wood is heavier and therefore they would get more credits for burning wet wood unless the assumed boiler efficiency was somehow measured with a continuous monitoring system (basically continuous CO, O2 and stack temperature measurement)

Do note for boiler systems its a heck of lot easier, measure the flowrate of water into the boiler and the inlet and outlets temps. The result of some basic math would be a thermal output that could be reported on a BTU meter and read periodically . Of course there is then a far more intense debate available on the thermal quality of these btus. Think of it this way, I come up with a way to heat 10000 pounds of water from 70 degrees to 71 degrees. I get roughly 10,000 btus credit but for most folks the 71 degree water is too cold to do much heating. The alternative is to heat 100 pound of water from 70 to 170 degrees. This is useful for those with convective or radiant heat but as far as the btu credit its the same 10,000 btus. Take this down to the con man side and a power plant has to reject heat to generate power either via a cooling tower or with river or ocean water. They are heating millions of pounds of water a couple of degrees but the water is probably 40 degrees. Thus they can claim a large credit for creating thermal energy which is basically useless, hats why they are heating up the local river or just pumping heat in the air via a cooling tower. So the law is going to have to factor in the usefulness of the BTUS generated as well as quantity. This process is ripe for political maneuvering and abuse.

Europe has a carbon credit market that runs similar to the SREC market, it has been a failure since the beginning as many folks have figured out how to game the system with far more complex logic than I laid out. New England has the REGGI carbon market for utilities which effectively is a carbon tax with some of the proceeds going back to states with the intention to support residential energy savings programs, in reality these funds have been scalped by many states for other purposes and even the renewable programs have been tainted with cronyism in many areas where politically connected suppliers get exclusive access to the funds. I expect the thermal REC market is also ripe for abuse and I expect entrepreneurs and wall street are already looking to game the system.
pretty much nailed it. However, with pellets, the fuel is somewhat standardized. Stick wood is tougher, that's all over the map from moisture to density. Either way, I'm sure fuel receipts will be required as part of the process...they wouldn't want folks using their OWN wood and getting a kickback now would they?
 
Lets take it to its illogical conclusion, burn rocks :). They are after all Maine and NHs renewable resource (ask any gardener).
 
Scott I've been thinking about more sophisticated ways to run pellet stoves, including proof of efficiency. My profession is electronics realization, and I have a lot of engineering relationships - I'm PM'ing my contact info if you'd like to discuss. This does not look particularly difficult to my eye.

This could be fun.
- Jeff
 
This can't be for home owner stoves can it? Seems like a gross waste of money for everyone involved if it was....now power plants and such a different story
 
Yikes lol......by the time the government is done getting there hands in the business the added cost will make it prohibitive.....I better make sure my propane furnace works :)

Bingo!
 
One more Big Brother attempt to legislate us into oblivion. Too many bureaucrats trying to justify their existence. JUST LET US ALONE! We can't save the world when the world doesn't want saving and is too busy blowing each other up.
 
It depends on the value of the thermal credits. Folks In Mass get $250 per Megawatt hour (1 SREC) generated minus commissions for the broker for electricity while NH pays $50 for the same SREC. I know of folks in mass who have cut a couple of years of payback off their solar systems by selling SRECs.
 
It depends on the value of the thermal credits. Folks In Mass get $250 per Megawatt hour (1 SREC) generated minus commissions for the broker for electricity while NH pays $50 for the same SREC. I know of folks in mass who have cut a couple of years of payback off their solar systems by selling SRECs.

How do they pay for all the development, installation and calibration of the monitoring systems. I would think someone would have to come out and check the accuracy of the load cells, thermocouples or what have you.
 
Wow, y'all look at this like its a bad thing? The people who are working hard on this are actually doing it to try and defer REC funds toward regular people vs. large scale solar and wing getting all the bennies. Knowing how much fuel you burn isn't all that big of big secret is it?
 
America.....what has happened to us?.
Man, am I glad I burn wood.
What's next? Monitor how many revolutions my chainsaw makes to determine how many trees I've cut
 
  • Like
Reactions: tjnamtiw
Wow, y'all look at this like its a bad thing? The people who are working hard on this are actually doing it to try and defer REC funds toward regular people vs. large scale solar and wing getting all the bennies. Knowing how much fuel you burn isn't all that big of big secret is it?

If that's all they wanted they do they could set up a website with stove manufacturer data, people could create accounts and scan in receipts for fuel purchased and burned......piece of cake.
 
Fuel metering is common on solid fuel industrial and utility boilers. It's usually done on scale conveyors. It's much more difficult to measure throughput in an auger because the fill density of the fuel in the auger varies quite a bit. I would agree with Peakbagger's analysis. There would have to be quite a few assumptions made to make it practical for a homeowner's pellet stove to meter fuel input. Measuring stove heat output BTU is even more problematic. The temp is pretty easy to measure but flow rate would be a bear. There's not enough straight lengths of ductwork to get a decent reading.
 
In my plastics industry, we use weigh scales that have load cells to tell us how much of each ingredient we are using. Similarly, the stove's hopper could be mounted on a load cell and we could see the weight loss (usage over time). To rely on auger rpm's would introduce too many errors such as pellet density (heat value) and pellet weight per unit volume (longer pellets = less weight per cu. in.). You need to know how many pounds per hour you are using and the load cell would do that. If you wanted to know how much you are dropping each shot then you would need a much smaller load cell arrangement and a dumping mechanism plus a counting routine to know pounds per hour.
Like skibumm said, measuring useable output btu's is a tough one. If you could track flue temps and air volume continuously, you would know how many btu's are going up the flue. The only assumption then would be how many btu's per pound of pellets. Subtract the lost btu's from the known pounds per hour consumed times btu's per pound and voila.
All this to save the world.......... When will we ever learn? Hundreds of millions of people burning buffalo and camel dung to cook and stay warm and we're going to save NOTHING.
 
No need to meter......just have a set of manufacturer efficiencies and a standard for BTU per pound of pellets......than enter in how many bags used/purchased. Done.....have someone go around and audit randomly or when the software sees something suspicious.

Or just do nothing.....that's probably best.
 
No need to meter......just have a set of manufacturer efficiencies and a standard for BTU per pound of pellets......than enter in how many bags used/purchased. Done.....have someone go around and audit randomly or when the software sees something suspicious.

Or just do nothing.....that's probably best.

Thumbs up on the last part!
 
Lets take it to its illogical conclusion, burn rocks :). They are after all Maine and NHs renewable resource (ask any gardener).
Yup. Every spring there's a new crop of them. But the burn at too high a temperature for home heating.

This project sounds like a sink hole.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.