Empyre Elite boiler corrosion

[Woodfarmer1]

First off, i had an early 2010 boiler with no problems and i run the snap disc.
The first change they made after that had the problems, even my dealer had one last year that leaked.
I have absolutely no use for profab and not much for Ben either.
Pro fab knows they have major leakage with thier boilers and should have supplied all owners with the danfoss valve if that is what is required, not charge $600 for it.
Pro fab also claims you don't need storage, you sure do, i would only get a maximum 4 hours burn, get my system hot and then run out of heat.

Now the wood is a whole other issue, you probably wont be able to burn that load untill you get it down to under 20%, my best advice is to cancel the order and get organized for next year.
If you want to burn wood this year just put in a woodstove or find a wood furnace add on for now.

 

[arbutus]

Woodfarmer1, what SN boiler do you have and how much storage are you operating with? Unpressurized?

 

[DavelafsrCT]

Woodfarmer1, what SN boiler do you have and how much storage are you operating with? Unpressurized?

When you guys talk about storage are you talking about a hot water tank? I am also wondering if you are have baseboard hot water systems or forced hot air?

 

[Woodfarmer1]

SN was in the 100's, I sold the boiler this spring and installed a Garn Jr. with 1000 g its unpressurized so i have a heat exchanger and in floor radiant pex.

 

[arbutus]

When you guys talk about storage are you talking about a hot water tank? I am also wondering if you are have baseboard hot water systems or forced hot air?

Yes, typically a large hot water tank, a few hundred gallons or more. I have lower temperature radiant floor and panel radiators, and am putting an old style EE in service when it stays cold enough.

 

[DavelafsrCT]

Yes, typically a large hot water tank, a few hundred gallons or more. I have lower temperature radiant floor and panel radiators, and am putting an old style EE in service when it stays cold enough.

Okay. So is the suggestion that you need a bank of hot water because the wood boiler can't keep up? The idea being that you draw your energy from this bank of hot water instead of just circulating through the boiler? I hope that is not the case. I was assured I would have plenty of energy from a wood boiler to supply both, my heating needs and domestic HW.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60

 

[Chris Hoskin]

DavelafsrCT, this is a common misunderstanding. It is important understand that adding thermal storage to a boiler does NOT increase the boiler's output. It does, however, minimize the accumulation of corrosive creosote and water condensation in the boiler and so extends the life of the boiler. Thermal storage also allows you to run the boiler when you need some heat in the house, but it is too warm to run the wood boiler (this time of year, for example).

 

[arbutus]

Okay. So is the suggestion that you need a bank of hot water because the wood boiler can't keep up? The idea being that you draw your energy from this bank of hot water instead of just circulating through the boiler? I hope that is not the case. I was assured I would have plenty of energy from a wood boiler to supply both, my heating needs and domestic HW.

No. As Chris said above it is so the boiler can burn at full rated output and put its heat somewhere.
Hot fire, full output, minimizes creosote formation and accumulation.

 

[maple1]

Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60

Storage wouldn't help that situation.

 

[arbutus]

Correct, believe me i tried last winter and had to feed the boiler every 4 hours.
Pro fab advertised 100k btu i was getting maybe 50-60

Pro fab advertises a 125k btu peak output and 66 kbtu with an 8 hour burn time. What is your heating load?

 

[Woodfarmer1]

50k

 

[DavelafsrCT]

Where in SE CT are you?

The first gen boilers are the ones that had the major problems. Origonally the instructions had you hook the boiler circ pump up to the cheesy snap disc controlled outlet pigtail so the the pump cycled on & off. It is way better to run the pump continually and use a temperature regulating valve (Danfoss) to control the return water temp to > 140 deg F.

Burn well seasoned wood, maintain your water chemistry, plumb it with a return water temperature protection valve, do not overload the firebox and allow it to constantly smolder in idle mode and you will grealty reduce these issues.

By the way. Where in SE CT are you?

 

[mustash29]

Griswold, near Voluntown here, but work in Lisbon. We should talk.

What Pro-Fab dealer are you working with?

What kind of wood do you have? When was it cut? When was it split? I think you may have some wet wood issues this first year with those moisture contents.

I got behind in my wood for a few years in a row, it sucked. I was routinely struggling with the stove and blowing through 4 cord + a tank of oil in the winter months. Last year was cold as heck but we only burnt a little over 3 cord of 2 year old oak + the typical tank of oil (tankless DHW coil + back up heat). I'm sitting on 13 cord right now, 5 of it is good to go.

Keep your eye out for log lengths this fall / winter. Get a load or 2 of green on the cheap, have it split before you mow the lawn next spring. You will NOT regret getting 2 - 3 years ahead on your wood piles.

 

[mustash29]

Here's my Elite 100 thread:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/gasser-about-to-pull-the-trigger.111869/

 

[mustash29]

The Elite 100 is rated:

44 K btu for a 12 hr burn.
66 K btu for an 8 hr burn.
125 K btu max, which should mean that a full load of good wood should be able to dump into an adequately sized storage tank in about 4.25 hrs.

44 x 12 = 528
66 x 8 = 528
528 / 125 = 4.225 hrs

 

[DavelafsrCT]

Griswold, near Voluntown here, but work in Lisbon. We should talk.

What Pro-Fab dealer are you working with?

What kind of wood do you have? When was it cut? When was it split? I think you may have some wet wood issues this first year with those moisture contents.

I got behind in my wood for a few years in a row, it sucked. I was routinely struggling with the stove and blowing through 4 cord + a tank of oil in the winter months. Last year was cold as heck but we only burnt a little over 3 cord of 2 year old oak + the typical tank of oil (tankless DHW coil + back up heat). I'm sitting on 13 cord right now, 5 of it is good to go.

Keep your eye out for log lengths this fall / winter. Get a load or 2 of green on the cheap, have it split before you mow the lawn next spring. You will NOT regret getting 2 - 3 years ahead on your wood piles.

Oh you are close by then. I grew up in Griswold and have family in Voluntown. You might now Rick M from Lisbon. He works at the incinerator too.
My son-in-law was talking about buying a load from Hull Forest Products and then we work together to cut and split it. Might do that. I think it is about $800.00 for a load and it says they avg. 8 or 9 cords to a load. The wood I bought this year is from Harts. They buy it from Hull as well, but they leave it in log lengths for a year then cut and split when you order it. It is mostly oak with some maple mixed in. I think there was some ash as well. I got it early this month and moved some in the basement to try and speed the drying process. I am afraid I will have issues this year for sure. I will try and find some that is drier before it gets too cold but I am new to wood so I have no idea where to get it. The dealer for the boiler is from MA - SJB Construction. Got his name from Pro-Fab. Based on the house I am heating he told me in a really cold winter to expect to burn 5 cords. I bought six for this year hoping to have some left over for a start on a surplus. I was not expecting to have anywhere near 13 cords hanging around though lol. I am expecting a learning curve with all of this for sure.

 

[mustash29]

Fresh split oak is not going to be ideal for this winter, the maple will be slightly better & the ash better than that.

Something like this might be worth your while to look into, especially if you have access to a good truck or decent trailer to haul it with.

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/for/4674456499.html

 

[Woodfarmer1]

I just started the garn at 4:30 51 deg, till 9pm 171 deg with about a wheelbarrow load of beech.
That's about the same amount I put thru a cold empire, to get 60 gallons up to temp vs the garns 1000 gallons.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

7am, after 10 hours the garn tank is 100 deg and its not insulated yet.

 

[mustash29]

So you are saying that the same amount of wood (assuming all things equal like btu content, seasoning, etc) will produce 16 & 2/3 times more (1000 gal / 60 gal) btu's of heat output in the Garn vs. an Empyre?

That sounds a bit far fetched to me.

A few posts up you mention your heating load is 50K, yet in another thread you say your house needs 110K. Maybe you undersized the boiler when you chose an Elite 100. Maybe you did have issues with your Elite but if it was running flat out all the time, it will need to be re-loaded every 4 hrs or so.

Granted some Pro-Fab owners have had problems, but in discussing those issues, it would be helpful to know
all the supporting info as well. Was it an indoor or outdoor unit? The outdoor units seemed to be insulated poorly. How well were the underground pex lines insulated? Details about the (atmospheric) near boiler piping? Details about the (pressurized) house piping & heat distrubution, etc?

If you put new tires on a worn out front end with bad ball joints and bearings and don't get an allingment, don't go bashing the tires for being crappy.

 

[heaterman]

7am, after 10 hours the garn tank is 100 deg and its not insulated yet.

Must be a wee bit warm in the boiler room . Insulating scheduled for this weekends project?

So the Jr raised 1000 gallons of water about 120* in 4-1/2 hours.........that's pretty near 200,000 btu/hr which is right on the rated output. Close to 1MMbtu dumped into storage.
Those numbers are pretty normal and indicate things are working as they should be.

 

[Woodfarmer1]

Yes it is Steve thanks for all your help.

To clarify my heat design called for 40k, Pro Fab said based on my house sf i would need 80-100k.

I then told them i bought the 100 based on their advertised output. I understood 125k was max, but i did not get the 60-100k over or anywheres near 8 hours.
Its the same addage as a car engine "no replacement for displacement". Empyre does not push or even recommend storage, therefore how can you even expect to get anymore than a few hours burn, as soon as the 60 gallons goes through the system, fire is out and there is no more heat.

 

[Deepwoodsman1972]

Here's some other information if its helpful:

1. My house is about 3500 sf. I burned about 10 cords last winter. I don't heat domestic hot water, just radiant baseboards. Burn time between refills is about 10-12 hours. Feed it in the mornng and evening. When its really cold (0 -15F outside) I will throw a couple extra pieces inside mid-day.

2. Burn mostly oak, cut and split two years ahead. Store it all under roof outside. Moisture at burn time is between 5-13%.

3. I am on my second boilder (EE 100). Refurb. one. So far so good but have only had this one for 1/2 of last winter. I'd sad to see so many problems from Empyre. I agree customer service is horrible.

4. Before I fire mine this year I am going to have my terracota liner torn out of my chimney and have a stainless steel liner put in to reduce creosote build up. I have two other friends that have these boilers and have had dramatically less creosote buildup after this was done, not too mention alot more efficiency.

5. I agree with the whole Danfoss Valve BS. If you were required to have it since day one, they should have told you and included it before I had to rip my first boiler out and replace it.

 

[mustash29]

Mine is a 1st gen, refurbished, but not yet fired, that I got used. Getting ready to start a good "stay-cation" so hoping to have it up and running within a few weeks.

The way I see it, Pro-Fab put these on the market without realizing the issues, and have since made improvements. Some owners have had problems. Some dealers were very supportive of customers needs, other were not as good. The local guy I was contemplating buying a new one from was extremely helpful in answering my questions, explaining the history, etc. At that time, he happened to be the rep for the whole northeast as I understand it. Meanwhile I found mine on CL. Owner had issues, had it refurbished, but sold the house. The buyer threw it on CL.

I personally don't feel these units are worth what the normally sell for, as they are a cross between an OWB (simple cyclic temp controller) and an indoor gasser. There are good or better lambda boilers on the market for similar pricing or only a little more. I got mine 60% off and am hoping that with good wood, good plumbing, some additional storage & good h2O chemistry I'll get my $$$ worth.

As far as Pro-Fab, they should stand behind their product. They now require you to use their (grossly overpriced) ESO device in order to qualify for warranty coverage from day one. That is hogwash. As long as the boiler is plumbed correctly with an equally compatible device (Danfoss or loading unit) the warranty should still apply. For those who are stuck being told that they must fork over additional $$$ for the ESO to make the boiler work propelry.....well if it makes the boiler work better and keeps it working correctly for the long term, why not buy it? At the minimum Pro-Fab should be offering the ESO to prior owners (who are having issues) at a significanly reduced cost.

I'm sure everyone would be happy if their dealer called as said "there have been engineering updates, please contact (joe plumber) at ### and schedule a time for him to come over and install these updates for you at no charge."