Englander 12NC, my Frankenstien with secondary air. Pictures and details!!!

[Big Al]

I purchased kaowool from here: http://stores.ebay.com/HIGH-TEMP-REFRACTORY-STORE
I bought a 25' long role of 1/4" thick for about $35. It was enough to line my Fisher with 2 layers and my Regency with one layer, and cover the baffle on the Fisher with 2 layers. Use a dust mask when handling.

I measured the secondary air inlet vs. fire box size on my Regency and scaled it up for the Fisher.
I used 3 1.25 dia holes.

The 1.50 rectangular tubing is not welded on the inside of my stove, they are just screwed on.
It looks like it is welded but the tubing has a peice of 1/4 plate welded to it for a spacer.
Same with the back manifold, the whole assembly is removable.

I added a pic of the OLD version so you can get a better idea.

Cool. Seems like a reasonable price for amount of product. How much heat transfer to the room is lost in operation with the kaowool or does it just take a little longer to start throwing the same heat.

Gotcha. I referenced the model 13 a home depot for a few ideas, but I was hesitant to crawl on the floor of the store with a mirror and flashlight to check the secondary air hole size. I believe the're behind the legs on the bottom of the stove.


Oh, ok. Yeah sure looks welded in the photos. Screws are waaaaay easier in that tight location. Food for thought. That cuts the time for that upgrade way down. Where did you make your three holes. They look like they're on the front. How'd you route that?

 

[precaud]

Well, bigger holes and an air shut off are no problem to do at all.

Bigger holes in the manifolds (the boxes on the sides) - your 3/16" holes in the tubes should be fine.

I never thought about the secondary tubes cooling the stove quicker. Makes sense. How do the factory stoves compensate for this?

They don't. It's one of the factors that make the heat transfer efficiency of EPA stoves lower than the airtights.

 

[Big Al]

Well, bigger holes and an air shut off are no problem to do at all.

Bigger holes in the manifolds (the boxes on the sides) - your 3/16" holes in the tubes should be fine.

I never thought about the secondary tubes cooling the stove quicker. Makes sense. How do the factory stoves compensate for this?

They don't. It's one of the factors that make the heat transfer efficiency of EPA stoves lower than the airtights.

Yeah bigger holes in the manifolds, I understood that part. Had no idea about the heat transfer issue though. Fascinating. I imagine that the extra air would effect burn lengths as compared to an airtight, no?

 

[precaud]

I imagine that the extra air would effect burn lengths as compared to an airtight, no?

Absolutely.

 

[Woody Stover]

Wow, that's really interesting. Good ol' Yankee ingenuity.

I've got an old Englander 24 Radiant that I'm letting my BIL use until he can get something more suited to his space.
I'd be interested in hearing your ideas on how you might hot rod this box; Preheat system, secondary placement, etc.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Englander24001.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Englander24002.jpg

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h407/2bnator/Englander24003.jpg

Firebox dimensions:
Width--13" at bricks, 18" above.
Depth--21" to bricks, 24" above.
Height--16" in front section, 22" in step-up area.

The baffle plate is 6", angled up at about 25*. Front of baffle is 8" from the bottom of the step-up vertical wall, at about the same height as the front top of the stove. I think the baffle was an early attempt to recirculate and reburn the smoke. Stove was purchase new in '84.

Stove can be top or back vent.

 

[precaud]

Looks like a perfect candidate for grafting a secondary into!

 

[Big Al]

Yeah, lots of room for an inside manifold set up. I'd bring the baffle board pretty far beyond that lower section in the front to get all those gasses to travel far. Of course that may have an impact on your capacity. A really great candidate though as there are no obstructions outside or in. I think there are a few other threads on retrofitting secondary air that show how to build a traditional manifold. Try doing a search witht the search feature. And let us know if you do try it.

 

[Big Al]

Just looked at the pics again, won't sacrifice any capacity. You'll need to do ALOT of insulating though. Lots of fire bricks and that kaowool stuff like Wes said. Check out his set up in the above posts and use that info too. Does the flue exit on the top or back. Can't really tell.

 

[Frostbit]

Cool thread. I likey.

 

[raybonz]

Cool thread. I likey.

LOL well said..

Ray

 

[TX-L]

Here is my project on this topic. I ran the box beams for secondary air inside the stove for superheating prior to release through the perforated secondary tubes. It seems to work well, although I don't have a glass door to actually see what's happening.


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60745/

 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Now really impress us and put a cat inside!
Nice job!

I like this idea. Maybe post some youtube videos.

I always thought cats were kinda useless. I never thought of using 'em as fuel.

 

[Danno77]

Warm, how many 3/16 holes did you end up making on your burn tubes? Do you know how many holes and of what size are the ones in the 13? I know the 13 has three burn tubes, but I don't know the tube size or holes sizes.

 

[Big Al]

Warm, how many 3/16 holes did you end up making on your burn tubes? Do you know how many holes and of what size are the ones in the 13? I know the 13 has three burn tubes, but I don't know the tube size or holes sizes.

I have 16 holes per tube. Just checked the Englander web site. Rear tube has 5/32" holes, mid and front are 3/16". Doesn't specify tube size. I counted the holes in the tube it shows in the parts section of their site and it shows 29 holes I think. seems like alot, pic may be generic. I'm dropping my wife off at the train for work tommorrow and Home Depot is in the same plaza so I'll stop in and peek at the number of holes and size of tubes. You don't have to twist my arm to go to HD or look at other stoves. Just don't tell my stove.

 

[Big Al]

Here is my project on this topic. I ran the box beams for secondary air inside the stove for superheating prior to release through the perforated secondary tubes. It seems to work well, although I don't have a glass door to actually see what's happening.


https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60745/

Really nice work man Yeah, inside manifolds are better. The wheels are already turning for future mods. Thanks for the link, great read.

 

[Big Al]

Now really impress us and put a cat inside!
Nice job!

I like this idea. Maybe post some youtube videos.

I always thought cats were kinda useless. I never thought of using 'em as fuel.

My wifes camera takes awesome videos, she just waiting on some parts for it, though if she sees me near the stove door with her camera and one of her cats in my hand................

 

[Big Al]

Warm, how many 3/16 holes did you end up making on your burn tubes? Do you know how many holes and of what size are the ones in the 13? I know the 13 has three burn tubes, but I don't know the tube size or holes sizes.

I have 16 holes per tube. Just checked the Englander web site. Rear tube has 5/32" holes, mid and front are 3/16". Doesn't specify tube size. I counted the holes in the tube it shows in the parts section of their site and it shows 29 holes I think. seems like alot, pic may be generic. I'm dropping my wife off at the train for work tommorrow and Home Depot is in the same plaza so I'll stop in and peek at the number of holes and size of tubes. You don't have to twist my arm to go to HD or look at other stoves. Just don't tell my stove.

The verdict is in. The 13 has 29 holes per tube and the tubes appear to be all of 1" diameter. Looks like I am a bit behind on air flow. Looks like another tube, more holes and increased air intake is in the immediate future. Then I'll get to work on more preheat.

 

[Danno77]

The verdict is in. The 13 has 29 holes per tube and the tubes appear to be all of 1" diameter. Looks like I am a bit behind on air flow. Looks like another tube, more holes and increased air intake is in the immediate future. Then I'll get to work on more preheat.

I'm gonna let you get this all worked out, then I'll MAYBE mess with it, lol. Thanks for doing the hard part!

 

[Big Al]

The verdict is in. The 13 has 29 holes per tube and the tubes appear to be all of 1" diameter. Looks like I am a bit behind on air flow. Looks like another tube, more holes and increased air intake is in the immediate future. Then I'll get to work on more preheat.

I'm gonna let you get this all worked out, then I'll MAYBE mess with it, lol. Thanks for doing the hard part!

My pleasure, it's fun! Btw, where do you measure stove top temp on your 12? Do you use a magnetic thermometer, IR gun or both. The 12s basically have a lot of steel baffling up there and there's that 6x9ish opening beneath the pipe collar. I get my hottest temps 3 or 4 inches out to the left or right of the stove collar (above that collar where the flame travels). Sometimes it varies left to right by about as much as 100*. I just recently discovered that. Perhaps it was getting hotter than I thought as an unmodified 12. I used to keep the thermometer centered in front of the flue pipe but now I keep a magnetic thermometer to the right of the flue but I use my IR gun to monitor the other side too. I know the 13 and many other EPA stoves have basically an open chamber above that fiber board, so the hottest point would likely be along the front edge where all the flame dumps.

 

[Danno77]

I have mine between the flue and the front about midway. I don't remember why I picked that spot. Might have been from an email I got from ESW or it might have been trial and error. I have an IR, so I can always check things out with that if I need to.

 

[raybonz]

The verdict is in. The 13 has 29 holes per tube and the tubes appear to be all of 1" diameter. Looks like I am a bit behind on air flow. Looks like another tube, more holes and increased air intake is in the immediate future. Then I'll get to work on more preheat.

I'm gonna let you get this all worked out, then I'll MAYBE mess with it, lol. Thanks for doing the hard part!

My pleasure, it's fun! Btw, where do you measure stove top temp on your 12? Do you use a magnetic thermometer, IR gun or both. The 12s basically have a lot of steel baffling up there and there's that 6x9ish opening beneath the pipe collar. I get my hottest temps 3 or 4 inches out to the left or right of the stove collar (above that collar where the flame travels). Sometimes it varies left to right by about as much as 100*. I just recently discovered that. Perhaps it was getting hotter than I thought as an unmodified 12. I used to keep the thermometer centered in front of the flue pipe but now I keep a magnetic thermometer to the right of the flue but I use my IR gun to monitor the other side too. I know the 13 and many other EPA stoves have basically an open chamber above that fiber board, so the hottest point would likely be along the front edge where all the flame dumps.

I have read all your posts and am impressed with what you've done.. Whereabouts in RI are you located? We are not too far from each other.. Keep up the great innovative work!

Ray

 

[Big Al]

Thanks Ray. I'm from Pawtucket. About a mile or two from the Seekonk and Attleboro Mass borders. And about a mile form the Pawtucket Red sox stadium.

 

[raybonz]

Thanks Ray. I'm from Pawtucket. About a mile or two from the Seekonk and Attleboro Mass borders. And about a mile form the Pawtucket Red sox stadium.

I like McCoy stadium! I would guess about an hr. from each other.. I am very close to Edaville Railroad.. I get my firewood from a guy on the Rehobeth/Taunton line..

Ray

 

[Big Al]

Thanks Ray. I'm from Pawtucket. About a mile or two from the Seekonk and Attleboro Mass borders. And about a mile form the Pawtucket Red sox stadium.

I like McCoy stadium! I would guess about an hr. from each other.. I am very close to Edaville Railroad.. I get my firewood from a guy on the Rehobeth/Taunton line..

Ray

Yeah, and ironically I haven't been since I was a kid. I could see the fireworks from my back yard if not for the neighbors trees. The wife wants to go to a game next summer. She's from NYC, perhaps she just wants to go so she can boooo.

Is it Richard from Oakdale Farms? Yeah, I support the local farmer and buy my wood. I tried gathering my own one year. Now I'll stack it and use my maul to make big splits into smaller ones every couple days but that's as much work as I want to do. At $200 a cord for red oak I can't complain.

 

[Big Al]

I have mine between the flue and the front about midway. I don't remember why I picked that spot. Might have been from an email I got from ESW or it might have been trial and error. I have an IR, so I can always check things out with that if I need to.

Wow, and you're able to 700* there huh? Impressive.