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Englander 25-PDV 5 yo Merkle Korff Ind Top Auger Motor quits after long warm up

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by Don2222, Mar 29, 2012.

  1. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hello

    The 1st problem was the top auger quit after a couple hours.
    Well after getting the knit line ground down on the top auger it turns freely now and runs longer.
    See > Englander 25-PDV - Drop Chute Jam
    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-25-pdv-drop-chute-jam.85348/

    Now the top Auger runs about a day and then stops. The bottom auger is starved of pellets and then the fire goes out.
    I wiggled the top auger, it did not feel stuck this time. After touch it and moving it the auger started up again. The same thing happened when testing with the line cord. So now it is an electrical connection.

    Then I was refered to the thread on Merkle Korff and Gleason - Avery brand comparison.
    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/englander-auger-motor-failure-and-replacement.30454/

    It also pointed out that the older MK motors were crimped and not soldered.
    See my pics which show the wire (See yellow arrow) from the transform being pinched under the tab to hold it in place.

    I know from working with Hewlitt-Packard once in their Medical Products division that in order to make a good quality device, there must be a good phsical connection and a good electrical connection!
    Electrical Connections are points where many failures occur. An auger wire connection being exposed to vibration and expansion and contraction from heat is a very vulnerable connection!

    So since the motor itself seems good, I will clean and solder these connections and try running the stove again!

    Attached Files:

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  2. WoodPorn

    WoodPorn Minister of Fire

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    As an electrician, I say solder it!
    Not that theres much of a load on those connections, but that will be the first place to heat up and fail
  3. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Attached Files:

  4. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Well

    Now there are no catches on the auger Knit line and no more bad connections!

    However, the auger motor now skips a beat and does not turn when it gets the signal from the control board!

    Then the bottom auger is slowly starved of pellets until the fire goes out!

    Going to switch top with bottom auger now!

    Attached Files:

  5. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Don't forget the vacuum line to the door among other things.
  6. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Thanks Smokey

    I checked that today. I opened the door while the stove was running and got an E2 error!
  7. imacman

    imacman Guest

    Sounds like possibly a stripped gear in the case.
  8. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Could be
    I just switched the top and bottom gearmotors to see what will happen!

    That Top Auger Motor seems to start off real good but then it just runs out of steam!!

    So I may go for these. They are sealed and got great reviews on Amazon.com

    Another good place for only $59.95
    http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/fireplace.htm

    For Englander stoves just flip the transformer for CCW rotation.

    Rotation: CW facing shaft
    Torque: 100 inch pounds
    Continuous Duty
    Shaft: 3/8" x 1" (no hole in shaft)
    mfgr: Fasco / Von Weise
    6 bolt holes: 8-32
    Motor DIM: 2.75" x 4 5/8"
    Bolt holes:
    2 3/8" X 2 3/8" (top 4)
    1 15/16" (bottom)

    Cross Reference:
    4515U1-063 (1 RPM)
    Whitfield Quest, 93-0194
    12046300 (1 RPM)
    ECM-6, V07524ACD9, Traditions & Profile series stoves, Avalon, Austroflamm Breckwell, Merkle-Korff, National steel Crafters, Lennox Hearth 6216, Earth stove, Envirofire, Lopi, Pellet Master R7-RGM451, V08038AA09, 6216, CAR003, 6807
    Fasco V003, Rotom R7-RGM451
    NON REVERSIBLE

    Pellet Stove Auger Gear Motor
    1.0 RPM, 120 Volts, 60hz, .51 amps PV003 $59.95
  9. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hello

    Well I swapped the Top and Bottom Augers and it is running on 5 -5 for now. We will see for how long!

    Wow are these old Merkle Koriff Ind auger motors NOISEY!

    Sounds like a rickety old ChoCho going down a rickety old track!
    or
    The sound of the old 35 mm film projectors in the projection booth of a movie theatre!

    I just made a youtube video of it.

    Please have a look and listen!

    Englander 25-PDV Wood Pellet Stove with older noisy Merkle Korff Ind Auger Motors


  10. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    for starters , you should have a floor protector under that unit on a hardwood floor(nuff said on that). hard to pick out auger noise over the room fan. you might shoot another one and temporarily turn room fan to 0 so we can hear just the motors then boost the room fan up to recool the unit
  11. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hi Mike

    I Just made another video during startup with no room blower!

    Now you can hear the noise and see the auger motors! ==c

    Attached Files:

  12. imacman

    imacman Guest

    WOW....what a racket! _g
  13. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Yes, if I watch some of my old 8mm movies I cannot hear the projector! !!
  14. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Well get yourself a couple of GA continuous duty ones and take care of the whiners.
  15. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

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    sounds like a dry gearbox and some missing teeth on at least one gear, time for a new motor , the windings look like they have been cooked a bit as well
  16. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hi Smokey

    I talked to the woman at GA and she said they would not reverse the motors from CW to CCW looking from the front of the shaft. I asked her if they were mechanically reversible and she said she does not know anything about that. So I said cancel the order if you cannot help me.

    Then I called Electronic Motor Warehouse for the FASCO sealed bearings continuous duty motors that Amazon sells. They ship from EMW so that is why I called them. The reviews on Amazon were very very good. The guy was very helpful and told me that they ran out of the FASCO mechanically reversible motors for $59.95 but had the Wise gearbox motor that was not mechanically reversible. He said they may be getting more of the FASCOs next season. So I said thanks and goodbye!

    Then I called CSH Incorporated. They were extremly helpful. They did have in stock the FASCO continuous duty mechanically reversible gearbox motors for $59.95 and they would be happy to reverse them for me before shipping so they would both run CCW looking from the shaft end! He also stated that with the UPS ground shipping, I would have them April 4th since I ordered them on March 30. That is 5 days including Sunday. That was only about $13.00.

    So even though the clunky old motors are still running fine right now, this will eliminate that old time film projection clicking noise! Since I ground down that knit line on the auger they will not wear out prematurely either! !!
  17. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    Don, there are tons of posts on here about reversing the rotation direction of C-frame motors.

    The fellow who wrote a lot of the information in the stickies at the top of this forum even provided an animated gif of the entire process.
    smoke show likes this.
  18. DexterDay

    DexterDay Guest

    Only takes a minute. Just flip it. BTDT
  19. Lorne41

    Lorne41 Member

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  20. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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  21. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hi Smokey
    Yes, I do use the search function and it is very helpful.

    My point is that there are some gearbox motors that are NOT mechanically reversible. Maybe they have rivets instead of screws, I am not sure. However I do need a guarantee from these vendors that either they will reverse them or I can do it myself. Time is money so I do not want the wrong part shipped out to me!
  22. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hello


    Here is an interesting article on
    Maxi-Torque VS. Merkle-Korff. Which Auger Motor is the Best For Englander Pellet Stoves?
    http://www.pelletstovepro.com/2011/...otor-is-the-best-for-englander-pellet-stoves/

    The article does not say, if the auger was turning freely in that guy's stove if the Maxi-Torque motor works better.
    http://www.pelletstoveparts.biz/mm5...PSP&Product_Code=PP7000&Category_Code=REGENCY

    Also this article fails to mention that the newer MK motors are better and quieter than their older noisy motors that I have.
    Maybe they now use sealed bearings and not the sintered bronze bushings?

    Finally there are other manufacturers like FASCO that make very similar gearbox motors for alot less.

    Here is the new Dayton from Grainger
    http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DAYTON-AC-Gearmotor-12W364?Pid=search

    Here is a gearbox motor from Multi Products
    http://www.cshincorporated.com/product_info.php/products_id/10184
    PV003 1 RPM MultiProducts auger motor same as V003, HM-RGM451
    [PV003] $59.95
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Click to enlarge
    PV003 Auger motor by Multi Products of Wisconsin USA

    115 Volts
    SP/Open
    .5 Amp
    1 RPM
    Continuous duty, Impedance Protected
    CCW rotation, viewing from rear
    3 in. body
    Skeleton frame
    1 in. x 3/8 in. shaft
    PLEASE BE SURE OF YOUR ROTATION Rotation determined looking opposite auger drive shaft end, auger pointing away from you. NOTE for customers who ask...., it is possible to be mechanically reversed.
    Please indicate the required rotation upon order. Looking opposite end (from the rear of the "gearbox") tell us Clockwise or Counter Clockwise.
    Cross Reference: 4515U1-063, Whitfield Quest, 93-0194, 12046300, ECM-6, EMC6216, V07524ACD9, Traditions & Profile series stoves, Avalon, Austroflamm Breckwell, Merkle-Korff, National steel Crafters, Lennox Hearth 6216, Earth stove, Envirofire, Lopi, Pellet Master R7-RGM451, V08038AA09, 6216, CAR003, 6807, 4515UI-063, MOD 734, 4515UI-050 V003, HM-RGM451, 4515ui-63, 80488


    For a instructions on auger motor reversal click here

    Attached Files:

  23. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Hello

    I really appreciate and respect all the auger motor advise and research that was done here. One thing I noticed is that ALL brands used in Englander pellet stoves have been upgraded over the years and of course not at the same time. The Gleason-Avery had a big advantage over the Merkle-Koriff for quite a while because of the G-A upgrades. Maybe it is due to the higher volume production of the MK motors, I do not know. There is a thread that shows a G-A motor posted by KingOfTheNorth that shows a sealed motor shaft but not a sealed shaft that turns the auger. See >
    http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/25-pdvc-auger-motor-overheating.24847/


    Anyway I am trying to find the best continuous duty auger motor sealed everywhere possible on the Market today 03/2012.
    The CSH auger motor in my previous post maybe it?

    Here is more info on it from the source.
    "Heavy Duty Strongest Available Design"
    http://www.multiproducts.com/ac-gearmotors/ac-9000.htm

    Model 9000AC - AC Gearmotor

    Our most robust and cost-effective heavy-duty gearmotor offering an industry standard mounting allowing for easy retrofit into existing applications. Output shaft can exit from either side of the gearcase in addition to dual shaft extensions. The gearcase can handle a continuous torque rating up to 200 inlb. Available gear ratios allow output speeds ranging between 1 to 40 RPM.
    Available AC voltages from 110 Volt through 240 Volt allow us to meet virtually any domestic, or international, single phase voltage requirement. Dual voltage and both 60 Hz and 50 Hz coils are available. The gearcase is made from sturdy die-cast zinc with extensive use of powdered metal gears. Cut steel gears and optional soft metal or nylon gearing for noise-sensitive applications is available. High quality oil-impregnated bronze sleeve bearings are standard with optional needle bearings available upon request. Large diameter idler pins help ensure long life. Output shaft diameters range from 3/8” through 1/2” with flats, keyways, threads, or square ends to meet your application needs.

    Model 9901-A

    Item #: 9901-A

    Performance Data (Ref.)
    Voltage 120 Volt 60 Hz
    Rotation CCW
    Idle Speed 1.3 RPM
    Idle Amps 0.4
    Rated Speed 1.0 RPM
    Rated Torque 90 inlb
    Stall Torque 200+ inlb
    Stall Amps 0.45
    Part Number Spec 9901-A
    Product Details

    • Versatile, Standard Industry Mounting
    • Heavy Duty Zinc die-cast Housing
    • Common Industry Output Speed and Torque
    • Standard 3/8" Diameter Output Shaft with 1" Extension
    • High Temperature Spherical Bushings on Motor
    • Robust Output Flange Bearings in Gearcase
    • 2 - 12" Long Motor Hook-up Wires
    • Heavy Duty Geartrain Design
    • Nylon High Speed Gear for Smooth Operation
    Download Motor Specifications
  24. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    You need to be concerned about more than just seals on those motors.

    Some of them can strip their own gears, so things like the holy grail of high torque isn't always a good thing(tm).

    Lots of luck in the search.

    Also pay close attention to what NEStoveOwner has said over the last few years.
  25. Don2222

    Don2222 Minister of Fire

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    Yes, Smokey
    The motor above is made by multi-products and making motors since 1958. CSH Incorporated a big motor wholesaler, orders the motor using the best specs for pellet stoves and it is only $1.95 more than buying direct. A good combination since you do have to have the right parts in these gearbox motors for our stove auger application! So for $59.95 each it sounds like a winner for me!


    Shipped/Billed On:
    03/30/2012
    Type:
    Package
    Weight:
    7.00 lbs
    Shipment Progress

    • What's This?
    LocationDateLocal TimeActivity
    Chelmsford, MA, United States 04/03/2012 10:59 A.M. Arrival Scan
    Maumee, OH, United States 03/31/2012 4:40 A.M. Departure Scan
    Maumee, OH, United States 03/30/2012 11:53 P.M. Arrival Scan
    Lansing, MI, United States 03/30/2012 9:29 P.M. Departure Scan
    03/30/2012 7:36 P.M. Origin Scan
    United States 03/30/2012 4:12 P.M. Order Processed: Ready for UPS

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