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  1. pelletizer

    pelletizer Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    663
    Loc:
    Pellet County N.H.
    Mine is just the exhaust motor it started whining slightlley about 3 maybe 4 weeks ago and now is more pronounced and almost constant, The room motor is fine, I even did a pet hair check :coolsmile:
    I determined it was the exhaust motor as it I hear it while on start up and shut down when that motor is the only one running.
    I clean my stove just about every day and cleaned the tee and ran a vac hose into the house from the tee this weekend not much to clean as I have not burned a ton yet I was surprised how clean the whole vent pipe was actually,
    The motor sound, sounds like its at high rpm and a slight whine not rough,

    My vent pipe set up is as follows, out of the stove to 45* strait throught the wall thimble, TEE then up 6 ft to a 90* and vent cap.

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  2. drizler

    drizler Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    958
    Loc:
    Chazy, NY 12921
    Check on the iburncorn.com and iburnpellets.com websites. a couple of those guys have dug into those machines a long ways and may have your answer or know where to look. Check the make specific forums at the bottom and get in the Englander one and ask. They may have the corn model but know what you need anyways. Its worth a try.
  3. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    My blow motor on my Englander 25PI went bad within a year. I am, also on my fourth auger motor. Mike helped while under warranty. Englander motors do not seem up to snuff. http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/32191/

    Called them as recent as today, no satisfaction but it wasnt Mike who i talked to. I believe it was his boss Chris Terrell.

    I would estimate that in 5 years this stove required ~$600 worth of replacement parts.
  4. Garry P

    Garry P New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    53
    Loc:
    Soutwest Ohio
    Wow, you have been a member for all of 12 hours, and have made 5 postings complaining about the same thing. If your intent is to trash Englander I think you will find yourself in the minority hear. At least from all of the positive feedback I read, not to mention the fact that Mike from Englander is on this site on his own time trying to help people out with their problems.

    I would go so far as to bet that if you sent him a PM or even an e-mail at the address in his signature he would try to help you out. At this point though it comes across as you are looking for a fight, not an answer.
  5. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
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    Loc:
    Mass
    Can you find the 5 posts complaining about the same thing? How about the 1st original post. Two replies (one to you), one post to offer a solution to a similar issue and one post to share the same problem with a motor.

    Could you please find where what i said was bashing or trashing?

    As i mentioned in one of my posts Mike helped me out under warranty. I have no beef with Mike. I talked to a person at Englander today who led me to believe they are Mike's boss and they had no desire to find a solution to abnormally high motor failures.

    Everything i posted is fact and no attacks on them. I called them looking for an answer. I posted here looking for answer.

    I am seeking a solution and sharing with other Englander owners my findings.

    You havent offered a suggestion as to what the root cause of the failure issue might be and unless you have a desire to help i dont understand your interest in my situation.


    Happy New Year
  6. theking

    theking Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Messages:
    28
    Loc:
    western ma
    I agree with NEStoveOwner on this one. A forum's purpose is to find answers and nothing in his posts indicate he is "trashing" anyone. This appears to be a case of the facts leading to a conclusion on GarryP's part, and one he doesn't like.

    If I had the number of failures NEStoveOwner listed for a casual use piece of equipment that I purchased I probably would be bashing the company.

    I can't offer any assistance on the topic and as such will not provide any more comments, and hopefully others can do the same.

    Happy New Years Day everyone, keep warm. It's finally in the double digit temperatures here :)
  7. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

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    Loc:
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    Thanks King.
  8. stoveguy2esw

    stoveguy2esw Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    5,995
    Loc:
    madison hgts. va
    for someone who speaks of wanting to find a solution to you dilemma you sure do get around , placing a negative post in every thread concerning my product linking back to your authored thread is not seeking a solution , to put it in proper terms its product bashing. during this time you have offered to have one of us contact you by e mail yet you have not attempted to PM me or e mail me at my work or home e mail addresses which i provide on my letterhead (see below) i do not make it difficult to get in touch with me and if you look around this and other forums i participate in you will find that most folks end up with their issues solved in a timely manner, but i think you will also find that these people arent popping up on every thread they can find making negative posts.

    i noted that you have gone through several auger motors , i also noted that you have "annually" scraped the carbon buildup from the auger tube, somthing which should be done much more frequently that that. pellet stoves do require maintenance , this would be beyond waving a vacuum at it every so often. as for the motors we use, the ones you have had problems with are identical to the literally tens of thousands out there which have years of service on them in the identical feed systems that your stove was equipped with. if this was a chronic problem do you honestly think we would be still using this system? we'd go broke replacing motors.

    bottom line , ask me and i'll look into it with you, continue to flame my product and i may be a bit less enthused about being helpful.
  9. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Loc:
    Mass
    Hi Mike,

    I appreciate your reply.

    My link is to only share the same information as the original post without having to retype. If enough people share and exhibit similar failures and or fixes it might lead to a solution. Thats one of the benefits of these forums. Is that bashing? Linking was to save retyping and not to clog or hijack the thread.

    Can I ask you to point out where I was negative about your company or product? If anything I was very careful not to state anything but fact and where I shared an opinion, I said it was my opinion. The only dig I took at Englander was in reference to their quality statement. Can I ask you to point out where I flamed your product? I looked back through my threads and didn’t see any negative adjectives.

    I recently contacted Englander three times for a deeper investigation and to also ask if I could have the motor rewound or sent back for investigation. Had I known coming here and posting to you was the proper channel of communication I would have done that first. The Englander web site doesn’t say to do so.

    I started by calling your company three times over the last three weeks. The final call was with Chris Terrell (spelling?). He said there was nothing he could do for me and he had no interest in discussing how or why this was happening. I asked him if there was someone else I could talk to he said no. I don’t remember his exact words but they were something like, “nope I’m the guy that makes those decisions”. I’ve talked and emailed with you before during one of my previous failures, you were great to deal with. I didn’t talk to you this time and was told during my two initial calls I should talk to Chris. If Chris isn’t the guy than please advise your tech support not to refer people to him. If Chris isn’t the guy please share with him he shouldnt lead the customers to believe he is the guy.


    I have seen how you help people here and its admirable.

    I thought that my first approach should have been through Englander via phone and would have never thought that the proper first step to resolving a matter with a company would be through and internet forum. Please understand that perspective.

    Some comments/questions on your reply:

    I need to scrape the carbon more frequently than once per year even though I have only burned 3 tons in 5 seasons?

    Is it common for me and other owners to have a blower motor fail after such a short period?

    I know you are an intelligent and helpful guy, I have to believe that you think something is at the root cause of these auger motor failures. Chris wasn’t willing to pursue it further. That IMPLIED to me he doesn’t think there is a solution to be found. Another failed motor, customer buys a replacement. Business as usual in Chris’mind? I don’t know.

    Why do you suggest I only wave the vacuum? Did I imply anywhere my cleaning habits are anything less than adequate?

    I am not asking this question because I expect an answer but I have to wonder. What is the ratio of stoves sold vs auger (or blower) motors purchased from Merkle Korff by Englander? I wont even try to speculate as to what that number might be but hopefully your QA team knows the percentage.

    In an effort to save your company warranty claims and other owners the cost of a replacement motor, did you notice I advised on the breakdown of the mechanical crimp? Giving Englander field feedback doesn’t seem consistent with a basher. I offered a solution that could fix some failures. Chris Terrell offered me no solutions.

    You are right about Englander going broke using these motors. I certainly am.

    It doesn’t seem in the least bit strange, out of the norm or extraordinary that I have had one blower and 4 auger motors go bad? Chris Terrell’s answer was buy another auger motor. That’s how I ended up on this forum.

    If you’d like to help me find a solution and possibly lead to helping others in the future, id be happy to work with you. Thats not the offical position of Chris Terrell. Please understand I started with what I believed was the proper channel and I wasn’t satisfied with Englanders position (via Chris Terrell). I have come on here stating facts and am motivated to not throw good money after bad. Your are entitled to opinion and perspective. I came to here to share publicly the facts behind my failures and the cost to keep this stove running.
  10. pelletizer

    pelletizer Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    663
    Loc:
    Pellet County N.H.
    I scrape the carbon off every 1 or 2 days my tubes are clean as can be, I think it is supposed to be done at least once a week?
  11. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Do you know if once a week is based on a certain amount of use?

    I havent done the math but 3 tons over 5 seasons (~ Nov - Mar) isnt very much per week, on average.

    Does this scraping need to be done as often as the stove is cleaned? Are other folks scraping frequently ?
  12. pelletizer

    pelletizer Minister of Fire

    Joined:
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    Well I base it on just the heating season burning on average 1 bag a day, I admit I am anal cleaning my stove and am told so by my wife,
    Even though you burn only .06 tons a year about 25 bags a year you should clean the tube more than once a year.
    I scrape that caron every day or two but that is me.
  13. Garry P

    Garry P New Member

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    Loc:
    Soutwest Ohio
    Wow....
  14. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    western Ma , close to NY state border
    Have you ever checked the AC voltage going to the stove ?
  15. sydney1963

    sydney1963 New Member

    Joined:
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    770
    Loc:
    Windham Maine
    When I look at the end of the tube and see any build up, I shut the stove down and during that time while the augur is still turning I scrape mine. Pops right off in small slivers or chunks. I'm talking maybe a teaspoon full.
  16. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    I have checked to make sure the outlet is wired properly.

    I have not put any sort of line filter or voltage monitoring device on the line.

    If the line was seeing some sort of spike or other abnormal feed, wouldnt the control board be the first to go?

    That same breaker feeds a 52" TV, Xbox, Wii, Cable Box. There have been no other premature electric failures in that room.

    I did one more test yesterday (Sunday i did a bench test to monitor tempature on an unloaded motor).

    I tested the current draw of just the motor (i pulled the second gear out the gearbox).

    The current draw and tempature of the unit after 40 mins is the same as the fully assmebled unit. This means the motor itself is failed and its not overheating
    due to binding or friction in the gearbox. I did observe that over time the gearbox will push all the grease to certain corners of the housing.

    Maybe the gearbox should see a yearly lube? I say this under the scenario that too much motor geartrain friction overworks the motor and that leads to motor failure.

    The 25 pdvc is a flor unit correct? Is there any possibility that the insert model is more prone to failure due to the heat being contained? My motor outside the stove running on a bench reached 180F. I have been researching Dayton and Fasco motors as a replacement to the Merkle. Some of the Daytons have a flan blade mounted to the back end of the motor shaft to make it self cooling.
  17. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
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    OK , by your own admission you failed to check the line voltage from the beginning and you still don`t know if the voltage is within tolerable specs. Not saying that this is the problem but certain test procedures should have been followed from the start rather than you posting complaints in multiple threads. IMO, your comments also teter on the brink of arrogance too but maybe you are in fact able to wind your own motors and offer valuable advice to the stove maker and such but you not knowing the voltage after 4 auger motor failures leaves me wondering.
  18. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    12,100
    Loc:
    Western Mass.
    C'mon, guys, don't shoot the messenger!

    NEStove has spent a lot of money and a lot of time on his stove and is not a satisfied customer. What if he was a "normal" customer who had to hire someone to even open the stove? He would have had to spend twice as much...or junk the stove.

    We have no way of knowing if every motor and design that Englander used is within specs. Even if they were, many manufacturers of electric motors have big batches of problems...I have seen vast failure rates with blowers and other motors and even control boards from top name manufacturers.

    See this picture and the one before it (hit left arrow at top).
    http://www.hearth.com/visit/travistrip/source/180rejects.html

    That is Travis industries who has two full time people running and checking blower motors before they go into a stove. Why? Because the manufacturers ship defective parts!

    Just because Mike is greatly helpful does not mean every stove and component that comes off the assembly line is perfect. They never are......there are always a certain percentage of problems, and most companies choose to deal with them one by one. What that means is that even if a company finds out a slightly wrong or underspeced component was used - as long as it does not render the product unsafe they are likely to only fix the ones that break.

    An easy solution might be for Englander to consider a longer warranty on their parts.....just a suggestion, of course. It might cost a little, but customers are usually willing to pay a few dollars more for peace of mind...I know I am.

    In any case, NE is correct in that one of the reasons for existence of these forums is to report on problems and get help. On the other hand, we are not the official Englander Help Site...nor that for any other manufacturers, so this is just ad hoc.
  19. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2008
    Messages:
    59
    Loc:
    Mass
    Let me restate what i know. I have posted info and findings both in this thread and another.

    From the beginning i have known my feed motor is getting 110v. That is not the same as checking the line voltage at the outlet. Is there a 30msec pulse to 125v? I dont know. The average home owner doesnt have the means to check that. I dont. I am not going to hire an electrician or electrical engineer to put a trace on my house power feed until i see something else in my house failing. I do have a close friend who is an EE and has been helpful and great at providing input on possibly failure modes, if i had other failures id been inclined to ask him to put a scope on it.

    These motors are rudimentary in design (shaded pole). The metal oxide layer in the semi conductors of my other electronic devices, on the same feed, are much more susceptible to damage and they SHOULD fail before a crude motor.

    I apologize that i dont post in a more PC manner.

    I do know the average voltage to the motor, do you still wonder about my techincal knowledge? Maybe that was missed somewhere in my writing or your reading. That is technically not the same as knowing the exact voltage of the supply line at any one moment in time. I dont know which voltage you are saying i dont know (exact at any time duration or average steady state).

    I did more bench testing on a failed motor (current draw of motor w/o geartrain, temp). Im still trying to connect the dots. I dont think i can know more until i do an individual part swap (stator, winding, etc) between a bad and good motor.

    I have also been in contact with Merkle Korff (supplier to Englander) and two other motor manufacturers. My motivation is easy, stop buying motors at an interval that is beyond normal and possibly help other stove owners who have come on here with a failed auger motor. I am not the only one who posted with a failure but agree whole heartedly that i have been trying to connect the dots on what seems to be a lot of posts for related failures.

    I have PM'd Mike and he was nice enough to reply. My issue isnt with Mike. I will continue to PM with him until he, I or both of us come to a conclusion, result or decision to stop. I have shared additional details with him on my thoughts/findings.

    If you or anyone else is an Electrical Engineer or a Design Engineer who does shaded pole motors or gearbox design I'd love your help. If none of the above, i dont know how posts on my character lead to a solution. If your one of the above but dont want to help because im not PC, than of course i recognize thats my issue.
  20. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    Loc:
    western Ma , close to NY state border

    Actually we have no way of knowing if the components in the stoves sold by you are any better do we? Maybe they ought to offer longer warranties too?
    Being a dealer it might be more wise for you not to take a side in any brand dispute. It would simply reek with bias.
    I`d not be so willing to offer a viewpoint on this issue for that reason.
    It`s apparent and shown that Mike had satisfactorily assisted NE throughout the life of the warranty . The stove is now 5 yrs old and has only 5 tons of pellets put thru it (?) but we have only his word for it. The warranty is over by his addmittance.
    From what I`ve read in the past 8 months on this forum there are but few dealers who has given more help or manufacturers who stand by their products as well, let alone even entertain a dialogue with anyone who has bashed his product as NE has .
  21. MCPO

    MCPO Minister of Fire

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    110 VAC is rather low IMO and bordering on being a bit inefficient. Not always problematic but still on the low side. Since most electrical products , especially electrical motors, are manufactured to minimum specs (cheaply made) it`s always advisable to supply them with something other than questionable low voltage. My opinion as a certified electrician for the past 48 yrs is that 120-125VAC is a good voltage to supply a house with and it has been always my standard proceedure to notify the power company of voltages encountered that were lower than 115VAC in other peoples homes.
    Again . I`m not sure low voltage is your problem but 4 bad auger motors has to be a rare issue indeed.
    FWIW, Never assume the power company is supplying you with adequate voltages at all times and never assume your electrical problems weren`t caused from street power. That`s why you might be wise to call that experienced electrician and have him assure you your supply voltage is fine. It could well be worth the cost of his service call as opposed to 4 auger motors..
  22. NEStoveOwner

    NEStoveOwner Member

    Joined:
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    Loc:
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    I received a rather warm PM from natnyer:

    You shouldn’t own a pellet stove. In order to own a stove you have to be smarter than the iron used to make it. You aren’t. I have the same stove and love it. Have a nice day and burn oil or gas you really shouldn’t own a pellet stove.


    I repeat the above:

    If you or anyone else is an Electrical Engineer or a Design Engineer who does shaded pole motors or gearbox design I’d love your help. If none of the above, i dont know how posts (in this case PM) on my character lead to a solution.

    natnyer i am really happy that you own a trouble free stove but i just have to ask , why am i even worth the effort of a PM? You obviously arent here to help.
  23. doghouse

    doghouse Member

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    Dec 9, 2008
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    maine
    Every forum has characters like him. Just remind him that its a long fall off a high horse. It would seem to me that you shouldn't have to be an Electrical engineer to own and operate your pellet stove. You should not have to go around testing this, measuring that or running diagnostics on things just to get your stove to work. Having that many auger moters go bad on you seems to me like something the stove manufacturer should oun up to. Keep plugging, its the only way.
  24. flowercat

    flowercat New Member

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    I have used an Englander Stove 25PDVC and heat the entire house for the most part. The Englander stove and customer service have been great. You could put a small UPS between the stove and the oputlet. The UPS I have was reasonable and it verifies the quality of the power and will use the battery if the power quality is questionable.
  25. Garry P

    Garry P New Member

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    Loc:
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    I have to disagree that his problem sounds like something the stove manufacturer needs to own up to. If there were multiple people with multiple failures in their auger motor I may agree, however there are hundreds of Englander owners on this very site, and only two or three seem to be having problems, and only one that I have seen has been through four motors. Now, this person also points out that the real problem is a design flaw in the motor, and if Englander would only work with him, he would help them to solve it. My guess is if it were a design flaw, there would be many more of us with problems.

    Secondly, there are a great many post on this site from people who go on and on about the quality of service they have recieved from Englanders customer service department, yet this same person also has problems with their customer service. In fact his statements of the problems he has had with them are so far off the charts from everyone elses experience, that it again leads me to believe that jusy maybe he is the reason for the problem.

    And lastly, do you really think that he just somehow, out of the hundreds, if not thousands of customers that they deal with, got 4 bad motors sent to him, and the most absurd customer service I have ever heard of? The theme I see between his experiences and almost everyone elses, is him.
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