Englander 30 burning good! But keeping it going through the night without overfireing? [secondary vi

  • Active since 1995, Hearth.com is THE place on the internet for free information and advice about wood stoves, pellet stoves and other energy saving equipment.

    We strive to provide opinions, articles, discussions and history related to Hearth Products and in a more general sense, energy issues.

    We promote the EFFICIENT, RESPONSIBLE, CLEAN and SAFE use of all fuels, whether renewable or fossil.
Status
Not open for further replies.

nojo

New Member
Dec 22, 2009
224
Western/cent Mass
3.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8bEjqQz6w

A little video of the stove blasting secondaries with the air shutdown. This was about 1.5 hours after reload air shutdown for about an hour, secondaries will rock like this for a couple hours pushing 700deg stovetop temp.

My problem is that if I leave the air shutdown in a couple hours the secondaries go out and the fire starts to die, I get smoke out the top of the chimney and a black window in the morning with a ton of coal left in the morning. If I leave it about 1/2" open It helps, but then Im burning way too hot if I got a good load in. I still get a mound of coals and the house temp drops 5-10 deg in 8-10 hours (i have no roof insulation either so. Will be fixing this soon).

I wish this stove had a think like the blazeking does that adjust the primary air based on firebox temp.

How do you do your overnights?
 
For overnight burns, put any large pcs you have in.
 
Lovely light show.
 
nojo said:
My problem is that if I leave the air shutdown in a couple hours the secondaries go out and the fire starts to die, I get smoke out the top of the chimney and a black window in the morning with a ton of coal left in the morning. If I leave it about 1/2" open It helps, but then Im burning way too hot if I got a good load in. I still get a mound of coals and the house temp drops 5-10 deg in 8-10 hours (i have no roof insulation either so. Will be fixing this soon).

I wish this stove had a think like the blazeking does that adjust the primary air based on firebox temp.

How do you do your overnights?

By your description, leave draft 1/2 open and also the mound of coals, I would seriously question your fuel. But don't feel bad as this is a common problem.

If the wood is not as dry as it should be you will have to keep the draft open further in order to keep it burning. Also if the wood is not as dry as it should be you will get lots and lots of coals.

As for the overnight fires I will describe how we do it and this is basically how we've done it for the 50 or so years we've burned wood. On the bottom rear of the firebox we want a large split or even better, a round of your best hardwood. In the front bottom we want one of the easiest lighting and fast burning woods we have (soft maple works great for this). The rest of the stove is stocked with good hardwood and it depends upon your stove if these can be small, medium or large splits. Small firebox then you are forced to use small splits.

After stocking the stove we leave the draft full open long enough so that the wood is well charred. The time can vary a lot depending upon your wood. You may even have to turn the draft down some to keep from overheating the flue. But usually within 10-20 minutes we can then set the draft for the overnight burn. But how far to turn that draft down? I doubt if anyone can tell you how far but I'd bet most will say you should be able to turn it down less than 1/2. For us, on a draft that reads from 1-4, we actually set it below 1 or sometimes right on 1.

But before you set that draft for the overnight or long burn, make sure the fire has started well and the wood is charred. You may very well (most do) have to turn the draft down a little to a time. Maybe down to 3/4 and then maybe 15-20 minutes later down to 1/2 and then 1/4 or something similar. You have to experiment a bit and each fire can be different. This is not like heating with gas or oil. There are many variables to consider but you will learn quickly.

Just remember that the number one key to a good fire is good fuel. If you burn poor fuel in your car you will have bad results and that very same thing applies to your wood stove.

btw, I highly recommend you clean that chimney often in your first couple of years; monthly at least. I also highly recommend you get 2-3 years of wood on hand and always stay that far ahead. Wood simply needs time to dry and it won't dry until it is split. After splitting, stack it in the wind and leave it alone. Let Mother Nature do the rest.
 
Yep, sounds like the wood. You had it rockin ten hours at a time last February and ran "out of real good wood" so I don't know how you would have good dry wood now. With a big load of hardwood that isn't well seasoned the 30 will burn hot on a load of coals but erratic and when the gasification stage is over there is still too much moisture in the wood. Therefore the smoke and incomplete burn of the interior of the wood.

Went through that the first season with mine with just eight month dried wood.
 
In the video it looks like your wood is awful close to your secondary gas tubes?

There needs to be plenty of room between the wood and your tubes for proper Gasification to occur.

Loading the wood to high in the firebox can cause excessive temps.

And like BB,savage, and hogz said wood size, less than seasoned, and where your damper is set are contributing factors.

Assuming you have good draft, good seasoned wood, large splits or rounds you should have zero problems getting an overnight burn with the damper pushed all the way in or close to it.

One thing I noticed is the dryer the wood is the lower the temp you can engage the secondaries. Or at least this seems to be the case?

Like Savage said cleaning.....if the chimney cap gets gunked up the stove will not draft well and what you described will happen. My close friend (has a 30) is in the construction biz and burns a lot of scrap pine that he gets from job sites. He has to clean his chimney cap constantly in the shoulder season.

Try running the wood East/West with the damper 1/4 the way out.

You might check the door gasket as well?

How tall is your chimney?

I brought my attic insulation up to R-50 and you wont believe the difference. If don't have any.....that's why your house temps are plummeting like that!

Cheers,Hiram
 
Im nearly positive the wood is good. I had what m burning now for over a year and it was split then. I bought it as 'seasoned' last year (which is was not). So it had been split for a few months before I got it last yeah. Mostly ash, cherry and silver maple. Plus the stuff just goes up real good. ive got a 33ft tall chimney. its 11:30, I loaded the stove last at 12:30 last night and the house is 68 11 hours later, the outside temps are 40-50 out though. My glass is clean. I didnt stuff the stove last night, I put 3/4 of a load in, maybe a bit less becuase of the mild temps. Air was 1/4 open. THings seem ok, but I cant keep the air all the way down and get a good burn, through out the night I mean. It will burn great while the woods volitiles are off gassing, then between that and the coaling stage is where I get some smoke out of the chimney. Not a lot, just a bit. And the stove glass goes dark greyish on the outsides by morning if the air is shut all the way down. Even if I have good wood in it. If I have less than seasoned wood I get black soot. If I leave the air 1/4 open, while the stove is off gassing it gets REALLY hot. But I get a pretty decent burn with medium amount of coals left and the house decently warm in the morning. Its enough coals that on a day if its about 30 I can heat the house for a couple hours off the coals by opening the air more. THe stove gets up to 250-300 for a bit. I guess I shouldnt be complaining. I just think that the stove would be more effeciant and the heat more even if there was a way to open the air more throughout the night to get the stove to maintain a higher temp.

When the log become unrecognizable my stove temps are probably 300 or so, then I introduce more air and the re-ingnight a bit for a while. and I get better stove temps.

I may not have a perfect draft though. I have a 33 ft tall chimney, but its 11x7 tile. Had it cleaned last month and got hardly any soot from it. The guy said it was really clean. So I think im burning right. So I think I might be complaining about nothing. The grass can always be greener though! :)
 
nojo said:
I may not have a perfect draft though. I have a 33 ft tall chimney, but its 11x7 tile. :)
 
Hiram Maxim said:
nojo said:
I may not have a perfect draft though. I have a 33 ft tall chimney, but its 11x7 tile. :)

If I did have more a draft wouldnt I be over burning when my air is all the way down?

Also how do you find your blazeking burns different form your englander?
 
BrotherBart said:
Yep, sounds like the wood. You had it rockin ten hours at a time last February and ran "out of real good wood" so I don't know how you would have good dry wood now. With a big load of hardwood that isn't well seasoned the 30 will burn hot on a load of coals but erratic and when the gasification stage is over there is still too much moisture in the wood. Therefore the smoke and incomplete burn of the interior of the wood.

Went through that the first season with mine with just eight month dried wood.


What? Poorly seasoned wood gives you quick ignition and great secondaries for hours with the primary air fully closed? And then the moisture causes problems when the load starts to coal? That's definitely not the way I understood it, though I may have it all wrong ;) I think it has more to do with the way the chimney is drafting.

I have almost exactly the same setup, and problems. My 30 goes through a clay thimble into a clay flue approximately the same size as the OP only mine is not quite as tall. If I measure from the floor to the chimney cap, it comes in about 32 feet, but my clay thimble is 6 feet off the floor, so for draft purposes I call my flue 26 feet. Mine burns the same way with 2 year old pine. Hotter than fu** and hard to keep the stovetop temp below 750. In fact, mine burns best in the shoulder season because I can leave the air open more and not overfire in the first two hours and go to coals with the glass and firebox staying clean. I set it (in the first 30 to 60 minutes) and forget it until I reload 8 to 12 hours later. Once it gets cold out, I have to baby sit this thing for 2 hours sometimes until I can open the air enough to let it finish up clean. By open up, I mean like 20%, or with the tip of the spring about 1/4 inch inside of the ash lip.

It doesn't make sense to me according the the conventional wisdom of oversized clay flues drafting poorly. I think maybe what is more correct is that a 6 inch lined flue will draft more consistently and better (as in better for the stove to burn, not necessarily strong) than a big clay flue over a wider range of temperatures. This is my 3rd season, so I am not a pro like BB, but I am learning to pack my stove very differently depending on the outside temps, species of wood, and desired burn time. By packing it tighter and leaving less room for the air to move around I can leave the primary open more and not burn as hot in the first 2 hours.

Anyway, to the OP, it sounds like yours is drafting even stronger than mine. I can't close my primary air all the way down until it hits single digits outside. Do yourself a favor and locate the air intakes on the back of the stove and have some precut/preshaped foil or whatever ready to cover them up and shut things down when it really wants to go.
 
That is exactly what happens with a dense wood like red oak. The lignin in the wood will burn like gasoline even though the center of the wood is damp. I wrestled though six cords five years ago learning that lesson. Which is now three with two year dried wood. And steady burns start to finish.

Stacked to the top of the firebox all of that great light show is coming off the splits on top. When they are done, it is all over but the smoldering.

Disclosure: All of the above advise is worth exactly what you paid for it and comes with a full money back guarantee. ;-)
 
astrodon, Sounds just like my setup, my thimble is 6 ft off the floor, and the floor is another 2 feet off the base of the chimney. So I've got about the same height. I was getting a REALLY poor draft before I installed the OAK. Then I got a really poor draft at another time, turns out my clean out door was open outside. I sealed it with silicone and this is about as good as it gets. Im afraid if I do line my chimney with a 6" liner I'll have a hellacious draft. I do have a flue damper installed though I never use it. Used it last year tipping it about 45deg at times thinking that it 'held' the heat in by slowing the velocity of the air going through the chamber. But it doesn't seem to make much difference in terms of holding heat.
 
BrotherBart said:
That is exactly what happens with a dense wood like red oak. The lignin in the wood will burn like gasoline even though the center of the wood is damp. I wrestled though six cords five years ago learning that lesson. Which is now three with two year dried wood. And steady burns start to finish.

Stacked to the top of the firebox all of that great light show is coming off the splits on top. When they are done, it is all over but the smoldering.

Disclosure: All of the above advise is worth exactly what you paid for it and comes with a full money back guarantee. ;-)

I understand what your saying. Im not burning much of any oak. I was burning some rain wet stuff a few weeks ago, had issues with soot. The stuff I have now I had on hand last year it was split but wasnt ready to go. Its mostly ash. No hissing at all, no bubbles.
 
nojo said:
Hiram Maxim said:
nojo said:
I may not have a perfect draft though. I have a 33 ft tall chimney, but its 11x7 tile. :)

If I did have more a draft wouldnt I be over burning when my air is all the way down?

Also how do you find your blazeking burns different form your englander?

I'm thinking it may be over drafting when hot and under drafting when it cools? That was my thought. Just a guess!

But Brother Bart's description is right on the money. If the wood is not dry It will burn hot and then coal like a SOB with low heat output. Dry wood burns hot and for a longer period of time.

The Englander 30 is designed to have a 6" chimney/liner not 11x7.

The Blaze King vs. Englander 30 is an entire story in and of itself. Your talking a completely different animal :vampire: in every respect.

$1000.00 stove vs. a $2750.00 stove.

A free standing stove in my fireplace vs. a free standing stove out in the open.

Secondary air gasification vs. CAT

Radiant stove vs. convection stove.

From my very limited experience with the BK (been running for around 2 weeks) Here is what I can tell you. Disclaimer This is in my house with 2 of the bedrooms and guest bathroom doors closed. My house is 2120 sqft total and its a single story 1950s ranch with both stoves located in the middle of the home and a fuzzy red dog.

Englander 30 burns 8 to 10 hours on a single load of seasoned hardwood.
Blaze King burns 24 to 32 hrs on a single load seasoned hardwood.

My wood last year was 18 months seasoned.
This year its 30 months seasoned.

Englander Chimney 6" about 15ft tall liner.
BK chimney 8" 15ft tall chimney insulated double wall.

In all reality in a 24 to 32 hour period they may(grain of salt) burn about the same amount of wood. However it definitely seems like the BK's efficiency is certainly much much higher. Its to hard to tell at this point how much more as its way to early in the season.

The advantage the BK has over the Englander is without a doubt the T-Stat and the automatic damper, the ability to go low n slow and very even consistent inside temps.

However I do miss watching the fire burning.

I have been running the T-stat mainly in the "1" position. Heats the house to an even 72°F to 75 °F average.

The Englander puts out a ridiculous amount of heat for its size and gets up to temp faster.Heats the house to an uneven 72°F to 75 °F average.

I cannot imagine running the BK in the "3" position for a very long time as it would blast me out of here.

But in all honesty and fairness to both the stoves I will need to burn for a few months to get a better feel for what is actually transpiring here. The real advantage is that it looks as though I will be loading the stove once a day instead of three times a day and no babysitting.

Way way to many variables...just to early in the game.
Cheers,Hiram :cheese:
 
Heck Hiram, sell the 30 and build ya some mood fires in that fireplace when you wanna see flames. Best of both worlds. Even I don't expect a 30-NC to take on a stove with a bigger firebox, a autopilot and a cat. Two different breeds of stove for two different breeds of wood burner.

If not for the eight inch flue requirement there would have been a big cat Buck stove in my fireplace way back when. It just wouldn't have looked as natural sitting in my fireplace as the 30 does.
 
I've been thinking about making an auto pilot for the englander, either timer operated or thermostat operated. It would run on a micro computer programmed to operate servos. Would require extensive testing and failsafes though. Would use the Arduino platform.

http://www.arduino.cc/
 
BrotherBart said:
Heck Hiram, sell the 30 and build ya some mood fires in that fireplace when you wanna see flames. Best of both worlds. Even I don't expect a 30-NC to take on a stove with a bigger firebox, a autopilot and a cat. Two different breeds of stove for two different breeds of wood burner.

If not for the eight inch flue requirement there would have been a big cat Buck stove in my fireplace way back when. It just wouldn't have looked as natural sitting in my fireplace as the 30 does.

BB,

Yeah it does look nice the way You currently have it set up! ;-)

My Dad lives next door to me and has kind of hinted to maybe wanting to place the Englander 30 in his walkout basement where His Pre EPA Country Comfort (almost exact size of a 13NC) sits now. The basement is insulated/finished off and he has a 6" liner already inside the clay chimney. I can no longer have a fire in that fireplace as during the remodel I laid limestone tiles on the floor. I do have an identical fireplace directly below the one that has the 30 in it that I converted to natural gas. I got tired of lugging wood down into the basement so I rocked the gas logs.

Yes, Two different breeds of stove!
But what do you mean by "for two different breeds of wood burner".
Are you insinuating that I'm now a lazy CAT burner now? LOL :bug:

Cheers,Hiram :lol:
 
Hiram Maxim said:
BrotherBart said:
But what do you mean by "for two different breeds of wood burner".
Are you insinuating that I'm now a lazy CAT burner now? LOL :bug:

Well. Uh. Yeah. :lol:
 
[/quote]

I'm thinking it may be over drafting when hot and under drafting when it cools? That was my thought. Just a guess!
[/quote]

Thats was our problem with our chimney before it was lined. When there was a call for heat and the damper opened, the furnace would overfire without something to control the draft. Once the fire burned down and flue temps dropped, the draft was too low for a good full burn. A liner took care of it.
 
Hiram Maxim,
Tonight while watching a movie with the wife I was maybe 3 hours into a nice steady burn on one.
I turned it up to a little over 2.
I only had started with maybe a 1/2 load.
Anyways I watched a cool light show for the whole time watching the movie.
The t-stat closed a few times but there were still flames now and then by the cat.
I had the blowers on low to load the stove some.
Just turn it up to 2.5 then turn it back to you hear a click(door closing) then just open it back just a little..cool as hell.
Have you had your stove down to just a bunch of hot coals and then turn the air past 3?
Talk about some blue flame!
 
Hotcoals,

I have been basically running it at 1 almost all the way through. I almost forget to reload it, so the coal get down real small and I turn it up to 3 for 2 minutes, open the damper,wait 2 minutes, open the door and load her up. Seems like the cat stays active for a long time.

Been 28hrs since I last loaded it.....still going!

I'm headed for bed so I guess its time for a fill up whether it needs it or not!

Cheers,Hiram

16jg4z8.jpg

28 hrs. later
 
How big is the house and how large is the firebox on that bad boy?
 
Hiram Maxim said:
I'm headed for bed so I guess its time for a fill up whether it needs it or not!

The old throw a log on the fire before you retire is a hard habit to break. Took me until mid season last year to just leave the door closed and go to bed.
 
nojo said:
How big is the house and how large is the firebox on that bad boy?

3.5 cu ft
 
SolarAndWood said:
Hiram Maxim said:
I'm headed for bed so I guess its time for a fill up whether it needs it or not!

The old throw a log on the fire before you retire is a hard habit to break. Took me until mid season last year to just leave the door closed and go to bed.

Yes Sir, force of habit.

Im trying to do 24 hr burn cycles so that Im loading at night. But this stove doesn't want to cooperate, its still burning the wood from the day before. I have been burning all my ugly pieces.

This stove is very efficient. :cheese:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.