Englander 30....Having Trouble Burning...How Does it Work?!?!? Is it Getting Enough Air? (Noob)

[BurnIt13]

Okay, so you guys coached me through picking a stove for my particular install, you helped me install it, now I'm hoping that you can give me advice on USING it! Sorry in advance for the long post!

I recently started a thread on my difficulties burning with not the most seasoned wood. Great advice but I'm having some difficulties with good stuff too!
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/81745/

My fires even with dry wood have been very lethargic, almost like the stove isn't getting enough air. My setup is as follows:
- Englander 30 w/outside air kit
- 6 ft of double wall stove pipe
- 17 ft of double wall SS chimney pipe going through the interior of the house. About 6ft is exposed after it pops out of the roof. It is 2ft above the roofline, which is 7ft away.
- A 45 degree offset in the stove pipe right before the ceiling to dodge a floor joist.
- A 15 degree offset in the chimney pipe right before the roofline to dodge a rafter.
- Before I installed the stove I could see daylight when I looked up the stovepipe/chimney pipe...so I think its almost
a straight up-and-out install.

Here is my method of starting fires from a cold stove. I make a layer of small scrap 2x4 pieces on the ash bed. I then put a super cedar on the middle of the 2x4 pieces. I then put some oak kindling (about a half inch thick) going N/S next to each side of the super cedar. I then put some more kindling E/W on top of the kindling. (Yes I am leaving space between the pieces). Then I put a good size split of very seasoned cedar or pine on top of the kindling going N/S, a few inches above the super cedar. Then I put some smaller splits of oak also going N/S next to the pine/cedar.

Dissapointing.

Even with the door open it takes about 30 minutes to get going. Then when I close the door, I have to leave it fully open to maintain a descent fire. The secondary's will light off but the stove struggles to get to a 550 stove top, 600ish flue. That is about the highest it goes. If I back it down from fully open, those temps just decrease.

The wood in the front of the stove is actively burning/coaling. The wood in the back of the stove is smoldering, even at full blast. Then if I open the door for a few seconds, everything catches on fire and I get a blazing inferno. Then once I close the door, I get a good secondary light show but then it settles into being lazy again. (Burning in the front, smoldering in the rear) If I close the air down past halfway the fire almost wants to snuff out. It is almost like the fire isn't getting enough air!

I'm perplexed because I'm not entirely new to wood stoves. My parents have a Quadrafire 4300 insert which I use regularly. I just put one of those QuickStart firelogs on there, pile some small splits on top, and pile some larger splits on top of that. Then we just close the door and within minutes have a nuclear fire! And this is with poorly seasoned OAK, about 15ft of chimney exposed to the elements, and an outlet which is below the roofline!

What am I doing wrong?!?!?!? And again, sorry for the long post....I'm just frustrated.

 

[BrowningBAR]

Here is my method of starting fires from a cold stove. I make a layer of small scrap 2x4 pieces on the ash bed. I then put a super cedar on the middle of the 2x4 pieces. I then put some oak kindling (about a half inch thick) going N/S next to each side of the super cedar. I then put some more kindling E/W on top of the kindling. (Yes I am leaving space between the pieces). Then I put a good size split of very seasoned cedar or pine on top of the kindling going N/S, a few inches above the super cedar. Then I put some smaller splits of oak also going N/S next to the pine/cedar.

Dissapointing.

Just start with small splits at first and leave the "good size splt" until the fire is further along. There is also a "top down" method that some have a lot of success with that pretty much reverses the order of things with the kindling and super ceder on top.

But, which ever method you use, start with really small split at first to get the fire going. Get some fire starting success under your belt and then add larger splits as the fire progresses.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

I would take some of the 2 X 4's and split them with a hatchet....I usually start fires with splits of 2 X 4's and it seemed to work well when the 2 X 4 was split into 3 or 4 pieces. Do a search of top down fires as Browing suggested, and you will see some pics of what size splits folks use, etc..

 

[Danno77]

Sounds exactly like what my 30 was doing before I added another four feet to it. I'm up to about 17 as well, but maybe you just need a little more?

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Sounds exactly like what my 30 was doing before I added another four feet to it. I'm up to about 17 as well, but maybe you just need a little more?

Also, is your total chimney 17 feet, or is it 23 (17 inside + 6 exterior)

 

[Danno77]

Sounds exactly like what my 30 was doing before I added another four feet to it. I'm up to about 17 as well, but maybe you just need a little more?

Also, is your total chimney 17 feet, or is it 23 (17 inside + 6 exterior)

Total is about 17 from stove top to chimney top
Edit: a reread shows me he has 6 inside first. Should be plenty?!?!?

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Sounds exactly like what my 30 was doing before I added another four feet to it. I'm up to about 17 as well, but maybe you just need a little more?

Also, is your total chimney 17 feet, or is it 23 (17 inside + 6 exterior)

Total is about 17 from stove top to chimney top

LOL, I was asking the OP on the totals for his chimney...but know I know yours too

 

[Danno77]

LOL, I was asking the OP on the totals for his chimney...but know I know yours too

LoL, sorry Dave!

 

[BurnIt13]

Sounds exactly like what my 30 was doing before I added another four feet to it. I'm up to about 17 as well, but maybe you just need a little more?

Also, is your total chimney 17 feet, or is it 23 (17 inside + 6 exterior)

Total is about 17 from stove top to chimney top

LOL, I was asking the OP on the totals for his chimney...but know I know yours too

You guys crack me up! The total is 23 ft. 6ft stove pipe, 17ft chimney pipe. 6ft of the chimney pipe is outdoors. So it is 17ft interior, 6ft exterior Boy that sounds confusing.....

I'm going to try a top down tonight and see how it goes.

 

[Danno77]

Ok, maybe part of it was because you were starting from a cold stove and chimney? How does the reload go? I think that could make a difference.

 

[BurnIt13]

Maybe it was because everything was cold.....but I've never experienced this difficulty getting a fire started. Reloads are just as dissapointing. Lots of smoke unless I reload with tons of kindling and smaller splits first. Lots of babysitting to get things moving.

 

[pen]

Check out these previous discussions to help you better take control of your burning problems as they relate to draft problems, stove air restriction, needing to leave the door cracked, cool stove top, or you are simply new to burning.

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/60911/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/61361/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/45808/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/43191/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/33879/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/14236/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/65165/

https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewthread/43242/

 

[iceisasolid]

550 is a good crusing temp. It beats an overfired stove. Last year I had a similar situation with not so seasoned red fir. It hissed and bubbled out water from the ends and the temps would not get above 500 often, until I changed my startup method and split the wood into smaller pieces for burning. All the recommendations to split the wood smaller and get pallet wood seem reasonable.

I start my fires as such:
2 medium size splits about 3 inches from one another placed N-S, 7-8 crumpled news paper sheets between them, then 3 small splits E-W placed on the top of the 2 larger splits. Start the fire, open the door to stay latched open for 10-15 min then close the dose with the air intake all the way open for the next 10-15 min, then slowly close as appropriate. After the top pieces have turned into a glowing mess, I add a fresh split to the middle of the 2 bottom splits and try to allow for air to move around as possible. I'd resplit the oak and continue to try. I was frustrated for a while- most of last season until I changed my fire starting ways. I have a similar set up to yours but I have 2 15 degree offsets. Did you need the O.A.K. for your old home? Could that be effecting the temp by continuing to allow cold air in? You may consider plugging the O.A.K. intake for a few burns and compare.

Cheers,
Ray

 

[BurnIt13]

550 is a good crusing temp. It beats an overfired stove. Last year I had a similar situation with not so seasoned red fir. It hissed and bubbled out water from the ends and the temps would not get above 500 often, until I changed my startup method and split the wood into smaller pieces for burning. All the recommendations to split the wood smaller and get pallet wood seem reasonable.

I start my fires as such:
2 medium size splits about 3 inches from one another placed N-S, 7-8 crumpled news paper sheets between them, then 3 small splits E-W placed on the top of the 2 larger splits. Start the fire, open the door to stay latched open for 10-15 min then close the dose with the air intake all the way open for the next 10-15 min, then slowly close as appropriate. After the top pieces have turned into a glowing mess, I add a fresh split to the middle of the 2 bottom splits and try to allow for air to move around as possible. I'd resplit the oak and continue to try. I was frustrated for a while- most of last season until I changed my fire starting ways. I have a similar set up to yours but I have 2 15 degree offsets. Did you need the O.A.K. for your old home? Could that be effecting the temp by continuing to allow cold air in? You may consider plugging the O.A.K. intake for a few burns and compare.

Cheers,
Ray

True, 550 would be a good cruising temp...but thats as I as I can possible get mine. Thats with a ton of kiindling, kiln dried lumber, and cedar. Then, by the time it takes to get to 550 it is just about spent and onto the coaling phase. When I add a couple of splits it just smokes and the temps continue to drop.

I read through the llinks above. I have a hard time believing its the draft (but everyone says that). 23ft of mostly indoor pipe exiting 2ft above a peak, which is 7 ft away. I'm burning pine/cedar/and lumber scraps so it cant be the moisture, it almost seems like its starving for air!

<---------Frustrated

 

[joecool85]

You may consider plugging the O.A.K. intake for a few burns and compare.

Cheers,
Ray

He'd want to disconnect it, if he plugs it he will get NO air into the stove. That said, I would try disconnecting the OAK, sounds like it may be restricting your air enough it's killing the fire.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like everything should be working great. The one thing we haven't confirmed is whether the wood is really dry. Oak needs at least a couple years after being split to season. And maybe more with the wet summer you folks had this year. Try adding some more construction scraps or pallet wood to your mix to see if that improves the starting.

For starting the fire, do you have anything besides the oak? If you have some softer wood (pine, fir) or ash try that. The air comes from the front of the stove, so for starting a fire try this: Put two medium-sized (3-4") splits, North/South, about 4" apart in the center of the firebox. Put some balls of newspaper between the splits, then put 1/4 supercedar in the middle, and 1/4 supercedar in the front. Now crisscross some kindling on top of the splits. Ignite the paper, then leave the door ajar a little. As the fire grows, add some thicker kindling pieces.

 

[BurnIt13]

Anyone know if there is a schematic for the Englander 30 stove? I could't find one in the manual. It would be nice to know how the air travels through the stove just so I can troubleshoot any potential problems.

 

[BurnIt13]

It sounds like everything should be working great. The one thing we haven't confirmed is whether the wood is really dry. Oak needs at least a couple years after being split to season. And maybe more with the wet summer you folks had this year. Try adding some more construction scraps or pallet wood to your mix to see if that improves the starting.

Also, for starting the fire, do you have anything besides the oak? If you have some softer wood or ash try that. The air comes from the front of the stove, so for starting a fire try this: Put two medium-sized (3-4") splits, North/South, about 4" apart in the center of the firebox. Put some balls of newspaper between the splits, then put 1/4 supercedar in the middle, and 1/4 supercedar in the front. Now criss-cross some kindling on top of the splits. Ignite, with the door ajar a little. As the fire grows, add some thicker kindling pieces.

No, my oak is not fully seasoned. It was sold as such but measured between 22-26% when split in the middle. The oak I have been using the past few nights to get fires going has been 1" thick kindling which measures 18-20%. I'm mixing in plenty of kiln dried lumber scraps and a new pieces of pine/cedar. The oak splits I have been adding to the fire are the smaller ones specially selected to have a lower moisture content.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

I think the OP has a draft/air issue.....I am using oak kindling that is ranging from 23-26% and have no issues lighting a fire.
Any way you could post some pics of your setup, and that way we can see the piping and offsets? (Sometimes pics help a lot)

 

[begreen]

I suspect the stove is fine. Could be wrong, but I don't see anything so far in the description to make me think otherwise yet. Starting a fire with oak is not fun and partially seasoned oak, a lot less fun. Can you swap out some of your wood with a friend that has maple, ash, beech, etc.?

 

[rottiman]

Whats your outside air temp. Mine dosen't burn "RIGHT" unless the o/a is colder than 40 degrees. Mine is also burning alot better since I put 1" of ceramic blanket cross wise on top of the ceramic boards. Each install is alittle bit different. It has taken me awhile to get this stove to fire properly. They are a whole different ball game as opposed to non EPA stoves. Keep experimenting, you will figure it out.

 

[BurnIt13]

Temps have generally been in the 40ish to 55ish depending on the day. This afternoon is supposed to be about 33 by the time I get home, hopefully that will help. It is going to be raining/snowing so hopefully that wont hurt

Where did you get your ceramic blanket? Any reason why you didn't use a ceramic board instead? I've been thinking of adding a 1/2" board on top of mine since the factory ones don't fit well. Did you have any clearence issues with the 1" blanket? How close to the front of the existing ceramic board did you go?

 

[begreen]

Hmm. Can you explain better about the factory boards not fitting well? They should form a uniform baffle over the burn tubes. If not, that could be related to your problem. Before starting the fire tonight, check them carefully and take pictures so we can see what you see.

 

[iceisasolid]

You may consider plugging the O.A.K. intake for a few burns and compare.

Cheers,
Ray

He'd want to disconnect it, if he plugs it he will get NO air into the stove. That said, I would try disconnecting the OAK, sounds like it may be restricting your air enough it's killing the fire.

Good point. I don't know much about O.A.K. units- I don't need one. I'd disconnect it and try again.
-Ray

 

[BurnIt13]

I'll take a bunch of pictures tonight well documenting my install, my fire starting method (I'm going to try top-down), the progress of the fire, and if needed....the baffle.

It seems like a common complaint from numerous NC-30 users. There are two 1/2" thick ceramic boards that sit on top of the secondary burner tubes. Each one is roughly 10"x20" and they run N/S. The problem is that they are not precisely sized. There can be as much as a 1/8-1/4" either between the two boards, or at any side depending on how they were most recently positioned. They get moved around alot from loading the stove. I've read that alot of people on here either put a ceramic blanket or criss cross equal sized boards on top of thier existing boards. This leads to a hotter fire and better secondarys I believe.