Englander 30 NCH Please Help Me Trouble Shoot this...

[jared539]

Hello everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to look at my questions. I have the Englander 30 NCH and a set up as follows:

Masonry Chimney
7 inch by 12 inch flue inside the chimney
6 inch orange clay thimble through foundation wall and into the basement
from there a 6 inch 90 degree elbow to a 45 inch stove pipe and into the stove which has a 6 inch collar

for some reason i can not close the door without the flames getting low and eventually leading to a weak fire with a weak secondy burn if any at times.

I have the stove damper wide open and the stove pipe damper wide open

There doesnt seem to be enough air getting through the firebox to keep the flame running good

I have dry season wood as well
i can get the fire going quick and easy but when i close the door it doesnt want to keep roaring nevermind play with the air control to control the burn times

i am thinking that maybe my flue is too big and is not creating enough upward draft current to pull air through the stove box leaving my firebox with a weak draft. should i get a flex pipe 6 inch and shove it down my chimney and hook it up??? do you guys think this will solve all my problems???

I have been tinkering and wasting good wood for a week or two at this point... im ready to get this pipe but i need it to work at optimum performance . i dont want to waste any more money.

thank you in advance for your ideas and help

Jared

 

[jared539]

the stove calls for a 6 inch flue which has 28.5 square inches. it also says that it can operate under a flu up to 2.5 times bigger than the 6 inch so that is 72 square inches ..... mine is 84 square inches... do you think the extra 12 square inches will kill me that bad? or is it that combined with the fact that the flue is rectangular and the smoke wants to go in a circle there fore is even more difficult for the draft to tighten up and puill through my firebox?....

just rambling ideas but does this sound like im on target with this flex pipe liner?

 

[BrotherBart]

Your words quick and easy are part of the answer. Some will chime in that you don't have dry wood. Dry, wet or in between isn't the answer to your question. The answer that you have to get that chimney hot enough to get a strong enough draft to pull air through the stove. With a tile chimney that takes a while and a hot burn. That manual with the stove says door cracked for 20 minutes or more for a reason. It was written with that type of chimney in mind. With mine and a six inch liner that door is cracked for five minutes max because the liner can heat up and start drawing faster than a clay tile chimney.

Get a good hot fire going with that door cracked and let it go. Push it closed every five minutes and see what the result is. If the fire slows down immediately crack it back open and repeat. At some point you will close the door and that thing will take off by itself and run. You then know that the chimney is warmed up and the draft is kickin.

Once it is warmed up you are good to go until the next time you let the chimney get cold. By then you will know how long it takes to "prime" it.

 

[southbalto]

There are a bunch of folks on here running the NC30 so I'm sure you'll get some good advice.

So, this is a new stove? What's the height of the chimney? Is the masonry flue inside or outside?

 

[jared539]

thank you brother bart and southbalto....

The stove is new, the chimney is 23 feet... i have a block chimney with the orange clay flue inside the block ... my concern is that the flue is a little too big for this type of stove...

i can get the stove going really hot but the secondary burn does not kick on for long when i close the door ... it takes an hour of babying the fire and moving around the logs to the right place to get it going really hot .... i usually keep the door cracked about a quarter inch to get it ripping .... as soon as the door closes everything slows down... i have the air wide open and everything ... i have not once had the opportunity to turn down the air flow becuase it always want to stop flaming... i have read that these stove operate best when you see the flame at the top going through the tubes. for some reason when i close the door there is very little air flow going through the fire box... i dont get it ... my wood is really dry and seasoned 100% guarantee on that....

 

[HotCoals]

I don't know if there is any linkage that works the primary air..if there is maybe it's unhooked?

 

[jared539]

also just read something about the ash clean out door on the chimney outside should be air tight... mine isnt ... going to fix that right now with some waether stripping i hacing laying around and a couple clamps.... i dont think this will have a big effect to my misery with this stove and chimney

 

[jared539]

i can close an open the primary air ... i think its hooked up fine becuase i can see a difference in the direction of the flames .... maybe there is something clogging it inside? i dunno...?

 

[BrotherBart]

..if there is maybe it's unhooked?

The last one hundred times people wondered that, it wasn't.

To the OP, the next time the stove is down to coals load the wood pointed front to back which is call North/South loading. It allows better airflow between the splits. If you have burned enough to get a chimney draw and have a good coal bed and it doesn't burn then you are trying to burn rocks. :coolsmirk:

And get over wanting to see a bunch of fire out of those tubes up top. What you are after is a nice burning fire and a stove top temperature around 550 to 600. Be careful with that N/S loading until you get some practice. Too much wood stuffed in there could get you in a overfire situation.

 

[HotCoals]

also just read something about the ash clean out door on the chimney outside should be air tight... mine isnt ... going to fix that right now with some waether stripping i hacing laying around and a couple clamps.... i dont think this will have a big effect to my misery with this stove and chimney

That could make a big diff...not just in the stoves performance but in creosote.

 

[BrotherBart]

also just read something about the ash clean out door on the chimney outside should be air tight... mine isnt ... going to fix that right now with some waether stripping i hacing laying around and a couple clamps.... i dont think this will have a big effect to my misery with this stove and chimney

That can make a huge difference. Before I installed my liner I sealed the clean out door and could tell the difference immediately. Your ultimate answer is a liner in the chimney. The goal right now is to get that puppy burning with what ya got.

 

[bluedogz]

the stove calls for a 6 inch flue which has 28.5 square inches. it also says that it can operate under a flu up to 2.5 times bigger than the 6 inch so that is 72 square inches ..... mine is 84 square inches... do you think the extra 12 square inches will kill me that bad? or is it that combined with the fact that the flue is rectangular and the smoke wants to go in a circle there fore is even more difficult for the draft to tighten up and puill through my firebox?....

just rambling ideas but does this sound like im on target with this flex pipe liner?

Jared, the Englander manual says, "If the area of the flue is greater than the collar, it should never be more than two and 1/2 (2.5) times greater."

IMHO, this is a safety recommendation and not as "you can get away with this size" recommendation. The difference in your application is 84 si vs 28 si, not 84 si vs. 72 si. You might want to call Englander for an interpretation of this page of the manual.

I'd suggest that BBart has nailed it- your chimney is never getting hot enough to pull the draft.

Having just installed a new liner (ok, HELPED to install), I can tell you it makes a world of difference. I think your concern is right- flue too big... draft too small.

 

[BrotherBart]

I just looked at your weather. Tonight isn't gonna be a fun night to try to burn. Warm with rain and a high pressure area. Real hard to get a chimney off the dime. I know, I am watching mine be a little sluggish tonight with the same weather.

The colder it gets the easier it is to get a good draft going.

 

[Wood Duck]

I'd try lighting a big load of lots of kindling and small splits to see if you can really get the flames roaring with the door cracked open. After that see if you can close the door and maintain a good fire. Have you been able to get a really nice fire going for an hour and there still isn't enough draft? Then you have a problem, I think. My clay chimney starts quite slowly in my opinion, but after a half hour or less it is working great even from a completely cold start. My chimney is 6 5/8 inches round clay, so it is the right size just a material that heats up a little more slowly than steel.

 

[jared539]

brother bart... i think i am just going to get the liner... i am a person that wants to do it right or not do it at all ... it calls for a 6 inch flue pipe and i have a 7 inch by 12 inch... i think im going to expand foam the clean out door now.. the weather stripping wont stick... im going to try to seal this thing and fire it up one last time before i order this chimney liner... as far as the loading i have tried it in every direction to make it work ... i did find the north south worked best with plenty more air in between ... when i loaded it east west it seemed like the air flow in the front of the stove wouldnt make it past the first log in front of it....

its funny becuase i get ripping fires in there with huge bed of coals... when i reload the wood in it i can not close the door at all until the wood is like half burned... i am going through wood like crazy... it seems like my stove wants to burn for the back to the front as well... its very odd... also the left side always seems to be burning and the right side is never going good

 

[jared539]

im going to get this thing going and take a video of it and post it to youtube so you can see what im talking about....

 

[BrotherBart]

It can be frustrating I know. My first year with the new stove was also. And I have been cooking sticks for heat in this house a long, long time. But the bad boy can burn into a 7X12, I have two of them, just not as easily and efficiently as into a liner.

If you have a combination of this kind of weather, unlined tile chimney and not the driest wood it is a fight all the way. Take out any one of those elements and it gets better. Fix all three and you rock and roll.

Hang in there. And hang in here. We do what we can to help. We have all been where you are right now.

 

[HotCoals]

If it's burning from the back to front the primary air has to be blocked some..or something to that effect.
You say the flue pulls on a big fire with the door open some..makes me not think it's the flue.
That said that clean out door needs to sealed.
With the door open and a hot fire can you feel the draft trying to pull the door shut?

 

[jared539]

yes , the other night i was sitting there and the door shut it self and the handle moved into locked position.. it was kind of creepy.. i get the stove roaring ... not a problem at all i get it hot as hell... i crack the door about a quarter inch and then close the door.. within 10 minutes the flames arent going well at all... today i came home the stove was out and there was still an unburned peice... i often come back to the stove after its out and there are chunks of unburned peieces ...

 

[jared539]

also, i am not exaggerating ... it really wants to burn from the back to the front... the flames are drawn towards the top front where the draft is

 

[leeave96]

6 inch liner would definatly help, but your existing liner might be OK - especially as the temps plunge and drafts get stronger. Have you taken a moisture reading on your wood? You can get a cheap moisture meter at Lowes for about 20ish bucks. You might be able to get an ovalized liner that would let you get 1/2 insulation around your liner too.

You got a great stove - keep working it.

Bill

 

[jared539]

its a shame because i just built the chimney as well with my cousin... he is the mason i help him lift blocks and stuff... anyway... i called two places around here and they said that i dont need the insulation anyway... they both acted like it was blasphemy and almost laughed me off when i mentioned insulation around the flex pipe... what gives?

if i get it im going to get the flex king pro ... do it right the first time

 

[leeave96]

its a shame because i just built the chimney as well with my cousin... he is the mason i help him lift blocks and stuff... anyway... i called two places around here and they said that i dont need the insulation anyway... they both acted like it was blasphemy and almost laughed me off when i mentioned insulation around the flex pipe... what gives?

if i get it im going to get the flex king pro ... do it right the first time

The purpose of the insulation is to keep the heat of the liner from setting off a fire external to the liner - like creosote left over in your masonary chimney. For wood burning, 1/2 is required. The second purpose of the insulation is to keep the warm flue gass warm. The warmer the liner/pipe, less chance for creosote to cool and condensate out on it.

Having said that, some here do not have insulated liners - were it my place, I'd insulate everytime.

Good luck,
Bill

 

[jared539]

i have a brand new chimney and the flex king pro has a thicker guage and smooth inner walls that dont build up creosote .... good looking out though... i dont hink im gonna burn tonight i will send a video of what it does tomorrow

 

[BrotherBart]

With a 7x12 tile you are not going to get an insulated six inch liner down the thing. Been there, done that, had to toss four hundred dollars worth of tried to ovalize liner in the edge of the woods. If you are going to insulate you are going to have to go with a 5.5" liner, coincidentally the exact measurement of the hole in the top plate of the 30-NC inside the six inch flue collar, or buy pre-insulated ovalized liner.