Englander 30NC Install

[Joey]

Yet another quick question. Getting ready to install my new 30 this weekend. Taking out the old Napoleon 1402 tomorrow. Just cleaned my liner with the sooteater with great results. Took the Pedestal off the new Englander and installed the new 6" legs, had to get the shorter legs for my application. Only a few bruised knuckles. I noticed that the fiberglass baffles have a very small gap between them. Only about 1/32 of an inch. Is this normal?? Or should they butt up to each other perfectly. Thanks again...

 

[BobUrban]

There is a thread about this very thing where someone used a piece of ceramic blanket on top of the baffles and feels it provided better secondary control if I remember correctly? I just installed a 30-NC and have the same tiny gap between the boards. I left it but it has not been cool enough to truly fire it up. I had one tiny bark and paper fire to see how she sould draw and make sure I had no leaks in my stove pipe install.

However - I did mod the baffles with a tip I got off the above mentioned thread and took a welding rod inside some door gasket rope and tucked it in on the one side of the baffle boards because that gap was more than a 1/4" towards the front.

Will report with pics once I finish up the hearth and it gets cold enough to test it.

Bob Urban

 

[BrotherBart]

Yeah ya want to close that gap. The rod through a piece of 1/4" gasket rope does the trick nicely. Put it on one side or the other, not in the middle.

 

[Huntindog1]

The Englander NC30 has some really impressive specs for a big stove without a Cat.
Not having the extra insulation blanket on top of the baffle board makes having those stats even more impressive.
Someone mentioned in another post that there is some type of plate or something up by the exhaust port as maybe a spark arrestor.
The grams emissions are really low for this stove like 1.63 grams per hour.
For Anyone that likes to look into the design of these stoves this makes for an interesting aspect.
Is that spark arrestor plate knockng down some of the particulates in the smoke reducing the Grams per hour emissions.
If a person could view the exhaust gas flow as it exits the stove does this plate cause the smoke to make a loopti loop one more time then go out the stove?
Having the extra blanket of insulation ontop of that baffle board should help maintain heat up by the secondaries at low operating settings of lowest input air setting.

 

[Huntindog1]

I would like to add that one guy posted on here a while back that he took out his bricks and placed 1/4" hi temp insulation back behind those bricks on the sides and bottom of the stove.

He reported improved operation of the stove.

Which isnt hard to figure as in these stoves its really all about building the heat up to operation levels and maintaining that level for the longest period of time you can, to keep the stove operating in a smoke burner mode as the extra heat your getting is coming from burning a gas we call smoke, I suspect the heat from the smoke burning is adding much more heat to the stove. I say this is kind of like the wood gasifier systems that smolder wood on one side of the furnance then injects that smoke gases into a ceramic burn chamber to get some really impressive temps, as thats why its a ceramic burn chamber to with stand the temps.

Now another aspect of this is how much do we reduce the stoves ability to radiate heat out into the room, or is the extra heat generated from higher efficiency of operation enough extra to counter the reduced radiating ability of the stove. As the radiating of heat is a factor of the difference of temps as in the difference of the stove temp to room temp. Or this extra heat that's kept in the stove from the extra insulation means the exhaust temps will be higher and thus we still get the heat from the exhaust pipe radiating heat as its just not the stove that radiates heat into the room but the stove pipe does also. Then lastly if the extra performance we get from a better insulated firebox lets you on average operate the stove at lower air input setting then this alone will slow the air flow thru the stove. As you slow the air flow thru the stove the heat has more residual time to radiate into the room. As we all know the reason these stoves wont build temps with the door cracked is that the extra air flow flushes that heat too quickly up the flue and that many have noticed heat builds better if you incrementally turn the air inlet adjust down so as to let the heat build more quickly in the stove as the reduced air flow helps heat to build in the stove and thats what its all about building and maintain heat to a operational level so as to burn exhaust gases get more heat from that and lower emissions.

 

[BrowningBAR]

How would adding insulation behind the firebrick improve stove operation?

this extra heat that's kept in the stove from the extra insulation means the exhaust temps will be higher and thus we still get the heat from the exhaust pipe radiating heat as its just not the stove that radiates heat into the room but the stove pipe does also.

That sounds dodgy. At best.

 

[Huntindog1]

This topic has been discussed before and it was pointed out that you may not want to put that extra insulation on top of your baffle board or you may not want to insulate the firebox anymore all because of the fact that the stove has to radiate the heat out into the room and hindering that may not be what you want. But I am thinking that eventually that extra heat has to go some where if the extra insulated fire box is holding it and the only way out is up the pipe and since its metal it will also radiate heat and it isnt insulated so if that extra heat is going thru that uninsulated metal pipe its gonna radiate more heat into the room.

Adding insulation behind the fire brick improves stove operation simply by improving the stoves ability to maintain an operational level temperature so as to get and maintain the secondary burn of the burn tubes up in the top of the stove. Just like totally enclosing the firebox with fire brick. The firebrick maintains a higher level of heat in the firebox , thats the main design concept of these type stoves. Pre-heated air exiting burn tubes in a firebox insulated with firebrick. The insulation behind the firebrick is just taking it one step further.
What you get then is a better insulated firebox, that heats up quicker , lets you get the stove air shut down quicker, lets you operate the stove at a lower setting and still maintain secondary burn.

You can think of it this way, the reason wet wood and even slight wet wood isnt good in these stoves is the moisture is coming out of the wood and cooling the heat int the fire box. With even slightly wet wood it takes longer to get the stove up to temp as you have to burn more of the wood in the stove to get up to temps to light of the secondaries and that leaves less wood to burn all night for you. You also have to leave the air open a little further with slightly wet wood to keep things burning and to keep a secondary burn going. Secondary burn is all about building the heat up to a level that it lights off for you. Then how much can you shut the air down and maintain some secondary burn is a tricky business with wet wood.

So extra dry wood and a firebox that builds heat quicker and maintain an operational temp to keep secondary burn going at lower air intake settings is better performance.

Here is a Quote from Hearth Member named Precaud that gives insight:

Burd said:​

I really thought that the brick would hold the heat in longer like a clay furnace. Has any one come across bricks that are better then others.​

This is a common misunderstanding. Firebrick is not supposed to "hold" heat. Its purpose is to slow the transfer of heat in order to raise temperatures within the firebox in the flame part of the cycle. After that, there is no good reason to "hold" heat in a firebrick. Once the flame dies, you'd be better off having no firebrick at all to maximize heat transfer. So the optimum firebrick has high insulation factor and low weight.

Here is a Quote from Hearth Member drfera from the same post:

I'd stick with the original material.

Insulating fire brick (IFB) allows higher internal temps than regular hard brick. If the makers put that in the stove, I'm sure there was a design reason for doing so. IFB doesn't necessarily keep more total heat inside the stove. Insulation doesn't prevent heat from transferring, it just slows down the rate of transfer. But with higher internal temps the heat will transfer at a faster rate, so it may be the same amount of heat leaving the box to the room, just higher temps resulting in a more efficient and cleaner burn.

​

 

[BrowningBAR]

But I am thinking that eventually that extra heat has to go some where if the extra insulated fire box is holding it and the only way out is up the pipe and since its metal it will also radiate heat and it isnt insulated so if that extra heat is going thru that uninsulated metal pipe its gonna radiate more heat into the room.

Throwing more heat up the pipe is not a good plan

Adding insulation behind the fire brick improves stove operation simply by improving the stoves ability to maintain an operational level temperature so as to get and maintain the secondary burn of the burn tubes up in the top of the stove.

I do not see how adding insulation behind the firebrick is going to improve stove operations.

The insulation behind the firebrick is just taking it one step further. What you get then is a better insulated firebox, that heats up quicker , lets you get the stove air shut down quicker, lets you operate the stove at a lower setting and still maintain secondary burn.

Adding insulation to the stove will not bring the stove up to temp quicker. It will, in fact, take longer for the stove to come up to temperature because of the insulation.

 

[Huntindog1]

I found that original post

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/how-to-extend-your-stoves-burn-times.61337/page-4#post-857685

 

[Huntindog1]

BrowningBAR,

Maybe others will chime in but I will say this its not that your heating up the outside of the stove that you can feel. That is the radiating issue we talked about, its keeping the heat inside the firebox that the extra insulation helps. More heat inside the firebox is what it all about for a more efficient burn. Yes you are right that it may slow down the heat escaping radiating out into the room but there are ideas around that also that the heat will eventually get out into the room buts thats another whole discussion.

Call a stove manufacturer and ask if you can take the fire brick out of your new high tech stove as you want the extra room to load more wood and see what they tell you. They will say that fire brick lined fire box is too keep the temps up in the fire box to a higher level at lower air intake settings.

 

[Huntindog1]

Can anyone post a pic of that plate up by the exhaust hole in a NC30?

 

[DexterDay]

Yet another quick question. Getting ready to install my new 30 this weekend. Taking out the old Napoleon 1402 tomorrow. Just cleaned my liner with the sooteater with great results. Took the Pedestal off the new Englander and installed the new 6" legs, had to get the shorter legs for my application. Only a few bruised knuckles. I noticed that the fiberglass baffles have a very small gap between them. Only about 1/32 of an inch. Is this normal?? Or should they butt up to each other perfectly. Thanks again...

Looking forward to your install pics. As for the gap, I used an extra layer of ceramic fiber board across the entire top of the existing layer. As others suggested, the gasket and rod is discussed in the same thread as the other board.

The Englander NC30 has some really impressive specs for a big stove without a Cat.
Not having the extra insulation blanket on top of the baffle board makes having those stats even more impressive.
Someone mentioned in another post that there is some type of plate or something up by the exhaust port as maybe a spark arrestor.
The grams emissions are really low for this stove like 1.63 grams per hour.
For Anyone that likes to look into the design of these stoves this makes for an interesting aspect.
Is that spark arrestor plate knockng down some of the particulates in the smoke reducing the Grams per hour emissions.
If a person could view the exhaust gas flow as it exits the stove does this plate cause the smoke to make a loopti loop one more time then go out the stove?
Having the extra blanket of insulation ontop of that baffle board should help maintain heat up by the secondaries at low operating settings of lowest input air setting.

I agree with Browning on all points. As for the 30 not having a blanket, it does have ceramic fiber boards in the top. Which is doing the same thing as your blanket. Keeping temps hot right at the top of the firebox, near the secondary burn tubes.
The stove doesn't need to be insulated anymore than it is. Burn dry wood and there shouldnt be any issue with trying to attain a secondary burn....

And the Baffle inside the stove is basically an impingement plate, helps to slow the flow of gases. Its a piece of plate steel connected to the very inside top of stove (in exhaust path above ceramic boards) and the gases hit this and get slowed slightly. It doesn't even go all the way across the area. Its centered in the path, but only occupies 1/3 the width. The left and right 1/3rd's are open. It's not a "Spark arrestor" by any means and probably does very little for emissions.

Lots of stoves use things like this to slow the gases/exhaust. Your stove may have one? Have you had your baffle completely apart?

The 30-NC has the same technology as your stove and many others. Englander just Hit a Home Run by using K.I.S.S. Is it a "cheap" stove? By price comparison, yes. But its a steel plate stove that has an insulated top (just because the word Blanket isn't used, doesn't mean the Ceramic boards are not doing what there designed to do) and brings super heated secondary air into the top of the firebox. Some stoves have some better materials, Yes. Some have a better "Name", Yes. But for a Giant firebox and Heat like the Sun, the price cant be beat. Even at $1,200 (whatever MSRP os?. Its a good deal.

 

[Huntindog1]

Dexter good point no one needs to do this stuff, good wood is all you need and the nc30 is a great stove.

If people want a cheap tweak to try then these are some ideas.

There are others that have done some elaborate tweaks like valves on their secondary air inlets that adds to the control of the primary inlets.

 

[precaud]

Huntingdog rang my bell and asked me to weigh in on this. The original question appears to be whether it is a good idea to close the gap between the two baffle boards above the secondary air tubes. As BB said, yes, it's a good idea. His "rod inside a gasket" will work fine. A layer of 1/4" kaowool covering the whole area above the baffle boards does even better, as it also closes gaps around the edges. Many stoves come with it now.

Statements like "Adding insulation to the stove will not bring the stove up to temp quicker" are too general. It depends on what kind of insulation, where it is placed, and how one defines (and measures) stove temp.

What can be said is that, by using insulating materials that weigh less and have higher insulating value, a stove WILL come up to operating temp more quickly and radiate more heat from load to load, unless you burn it down to cold coals every time. Just removing weight from the stove body will also do some of the same thing, but that's not easily done...

Stoves are like people... it's easier to put weight on than take it off!