Englander Stoves auger motors

[newport94]

Has anybody else had problems with Englander Stoves auger motors. I have a 25 PDVC that is 13 months old. I ran the stove from 12/06 to 3/06 and agin from 11/06 until last week when the lower auger died, 3 weeks out of warranty. I ordered a replacement and it arrived today, along with directions to align the auger in the tube. When I finished the install and started the stove I noticed that the auger was quiet, prior to ME aligning it it made some noise that I was told was "normal" by tech support and what I have read online.
Has anybody had a motor fail with such little use?
I called tech support and they insist that they have no responsibility due to the fact that the stove is out of warranty. I only realized that there was a problem when I replaced the motor.

As I see it they sell a sub-standard product and back it up with sub-standard customer service

 

[bret4]

What is the truck to align the auger in the tube? I think my auger is running out of alignment. It seems to run out and not run prefectly true in the middle of the tube.

EDIT:

Never mind, I just checked the Englander web site and saw the info on how to align the augers. I'll have to take my stove apart and see whats up.

 

[webbie]

Not familiar with the details, but others here have had some noise - and have been told to clean out soot accumulation near the firebox end of the auger. As far as warranty, that depends on what the exact situation was. If you motor burned out because they either mis-aligned the auger at the factory or did not provide you with exact instructions on how to regularly do so - well, then it would seem like their fault. Even on the soot-cleaning thing, it would help if they clearly spelled it out in the manual, etc.

Again, since i am not familiar with the manual, I don't know what they say or don't say (in the docs). But an auger motor should certainly last more than 13 months (5 or 6 month of use).

 

[blanc12]

My last lower auger motor lasted a little more than a month. I now keep a replacement on hand. The auger assembly should float in the tube. If there are no pellets in the stove you should be able to move the auger up and down in the tube with a screw driver. You should also be able to turn it by hand if there are no pellets in the tube. Keep the carbon cleaned off in the front of the tube. Take a screw driver and chip the carbon each time you clean the stove. If i have to keep replacing these motors I will be looking for a new stove.

 

[hearthtools]

Auger motors are funny components
They may last a year they may last 15 years.

Pellet stove manufactures do not use the gear reduction motors as they were intended.
The are designed to be mounted Flat.

Used on a pellet stove they are mounted at an angle 30 - 45 deg.
At this angle the grease will slide down to the bottom of the gear box and the many top gears are not well lubricated and the bottom gears are OVER PACKED with lubrication because of pooling at the bottom of the gear box.

This angle also buts a strain on the Bushings and Armature of the motor.

As far as noise goes you are going to get noise with any pellet stove in the auger systems from time to time.
You are CRAMMING a hard Ununiform substance through a tube. If you had to do that day and night you would be moaning and gowning also.

 

[BrotherBart]

You are CRAMMING a hard Ununiform substance through a tube. If you had to do that day and night you would be moaning and gowning also.

I can relate. :coolgrin:

 

[Andy 35]

I'm sorry if this hurts anyone, but alot of the question on this forum is about Englander Pellet stove, Let's face it "You get what you pay for" The auger design is not the greatest in the would, it due to fail. These stove are what they are Cheap, I'm sorry but I don't buy that a auger will last one season, maybe one out of every 100, but that's a odd's game. I read alot of question
about these stove's, sure Home Depot and Lowes sell alot of them. Have you worked on one, I have and they are what they are Cheap. That why HD and Lowe sells them. Does anyone remember the YOGO!

 

[AndyL]

I don't agree. I've worked on several brands of stoves, and all though Englander is the least expensive I don't believe They are constructed
any more cheaply than any other brand. That being said, yes you can spend a lot more money for a premium brand, buy a cast iron stove, or other premium options
that is your choice to do so. Having seen the construction on many brands I see no significant difference in the quality of the components Englander uses. Have you
noticed that several premium brands have lowered component quality in the last few years. In fact, I believe the double auger feed box that englander uses to be designed well and built very robustly by modern standards. If set up properly with the augers centered in the tubes I see no reason why an Englander feed box should fail any sooner than any other stove. Perhaps the reason you are seeing a lot of posts about Englander stoves is simply that, there are a lot of Englander stoves. or that because Englander is a less expensive stove, which makes them more available and attractive to a greater market segment. Being sold in the"BIG BOX STORES" also makes them more attractive to people who need an alternative to high cost heat but may not be as mechanically inclined to trouble shoot and repair their equipment, hence the reason to post questions on forums like this one to find help. I believe that is the point of this forum.
Sorry for the long post just My opinion. Thanks.

 

[blanc12]

I agree that the stoves are built well. But it concerns me when a new motor lasts a little over a month. Perhaps I got the lemon of that batch. I was hoping someone would have some insight as to why the armature failed because If it is something I am doing wrong I would like to know so the problem could be corrected. Even if it is me that is the problem. ( It usually is).


thanks for a great sight. I have learned allot.

Pete

 

[petejung]

Pete - I've had lots of noise coming from my bottom auger, but learned to clean out the carbon buildup in the tube daily. I'm hoping that makes my auger motors last longer. from working on my stove, I can say with 100% certainty that both of my augers were aligned OK form the factory - they both moved around freely in the tube.

I did find, just this past week, that they stripepd out 2 of the 4 mounting holes for the room blower fan. I can remedy this in the Spring, when I pull the stove out for yearly maintenance, but it's a little disappointing to have to fix it.

Something that I would advise all ESW prospective purchasers, and those who have just purchsed but haven't yet installed - Check all of your components before firing the stove up for the first time. Take the back panel of the unit off, check to make sure the hoses are connected, wiring's all plugged in, and wiggle the auger motors to make sure they are free, make sure the gaskets all look good. I would expect the installer to do this if I were paying someone to install the stove, or if it was installed by the place I bought the stove from. But as ESW owners, it's our responsibility to make sure everything is cool with the stove before we install it. There may have been an oversight at the factory (even thought they go through QC), something could have been damaged or come loose in shipping, etc. It would only take an extra 10 minutes to go through this check, but could potentially save a bunch of headaches.

 

[webbie]

Even Rod will never convince me that a Pellet stove auger can only last one season (if properly designed and assembled).

Well, to correct that, he has convinced me that they often DO only last one year, but as he mentions that is because they are not being used in the proper manner.

The maxim "you get what you pay for" may be a generalization....you can go to state or community college and get as good (or better) of an education than a 40K per year college (in some cases). Of course, common sense would tell you that more time and QC can be put into a $3,000 pellet stove than a $1200 one, but as we have seen many times, even 3K pellets stoves have problems!

That said, Englander admits they are the "stove built for the working man", which means they are a budget model. You are not getting the latest and greatest in technology....at least until Corie comes out with the new models. To be the price leader means you have to be tough and efficient....get the best prices for components, labor and everything else.

 

[BrotherBart]

Pellet stove manufactures do not use the gear reduction motors as they were intended.
The are designed to be mounted Flat.

Used on a pellet stove they are mounted at an angle 30 - 45 deg.
At this angle the grease will slide down to the bottom of the gear box and the many top gears are not well lubricated and the bottom gears are OVER PACKED with lubrication because of pooling at the bottom of the gear box.

This angle also buts a strain on the Bushings and Armature of the motor.

I am not sure that is the stove manufacturer's fault Rod. Companies like Merkle Korff Industries that make the motors used in lots of pellet stoves, including Englander, advertise the motor to be designed for "all" mounting positions.

 

[hearthtools]

Even Rod will never convince me that a Pellet stove auger can only last one season (if properly designed and assembled).

Well, to correct that, he has convinced me that they often DO only last one year, but as he mentions that is because they are not being used in the proper manner.

The maxim "you get what you pay for" may be a generalization....you can go to state or community college and get as good (or better) of an education than a 40K per year college (in some cases). Of course, common sense would tell you that more time and QC can be put into a $3,000 pellet stove than a $1200 one, but as we have seen many times, even 3K pellets stoves have problems!

That said, Englander admits they are the "stove built for the working man", which means they are a budget model. You are not getting the latest and greatest in technology....at least until Corie comes out with the new models. To be the price leader means you have to be tough and efficient....get the best prices for components, labor and everything else.

Im not sure what Auger ENGLANDER uses but most likely it is the same quality or brand as all the other high priced stove manufacture. so I dont think it is Englanders fault ither. I DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE ENGLANDER but reading some of the post
Do they have 2 augers? if so then double your chanced of a failer.


As far as how long they last Im just stating the facts as I have seen them in my own service department.
I have seen them last one year (gears Stripped out)
and I have customers with the same auger motor the stove had when I installed the stove in 1990.

As far as the mounting angle it is only common sense that the Lube is going to slide down when mounted at vertical

 

[petejung]

Rod - The englander PDVC25, and the other two models that are the same, but with a different name (timber ridge and summers heat) do have two augers, and I think are the models most often threaded in this forum. I'm not sure what brand motor they use for the augers, but the next time I'm in the back of my stove, I'll see if there's any markings on the auger motor and report back, as it may be of interest to others.

 

[BrotherBart]

Rod - The englander PDVC25, and the other two models that are the same, but with a different name (timber ridge and summers heat) do have two augers, and I think are the models most often threaded in this forum. I'm not sure what brand motor they use for the augers, but the next time I'm in the back of my stove, I'll see if there's any markings on the auger motor and report back, as it may be of interest to others.

Auger motors are Merkle Korff 4515UI series and the blowers are Fasco.

 

[cold-n-michigan]

Has anybody else had problems with Englander Stoves auger motors. I have a 25 PDVC that is 13 months old. I ran the stove from 12/06 to 3/06 and agin from 11/06 until last week when the lower auger died, 3 weeks out of warranty. I ordered a replacement and it arrived today, along with directions to align the auger in the tube. When I finished the install and started the stove I noticed that the auger was quiet, prior to ME aligning it it made some noise that I was told was "normal" by tech support and what I have read online.
Has anybody had a motor fail with such little use?
I called tech support and they insist that they have no responsibility due to the fact that the stove is out of warranty. I only realized that there was a problem when I replaced the motor.

As I see it they sell a sub-standard product and back it up with sub-standard customer service

Our second motor has burnt up after only four hours of operation. It went out on shut down. The auger was aligned and operating fine, it was also burning fine. Our stove is less then a month old with only limited operation. We are very unhappy as are you. I know this doesn’t help any. At least ours is still under warranty. We will be contacting the company Monday

 

[GVA]

Tough crowd here these days...
Regardless of which stove it is
Most auger failures could depend on the way the drive is designed too, direct drive vs chain drive.
Next you look at the auger design it's about a foot long and supported at one end......... hh:
And as Rod put it
"You are CRAMMING a hard Un-uniform substance through a tube."
it can happen, some designs are destined to fail and some fail due to manufacturing defects or as I like to call...
"OPERATOR MALFUNCTION" This can be at the build or run level....
I modified the drive on my stove and never lost a GM again after going through 1 every year, which wasn't normal anyway......

 

[webbie]

Tough crowd here these days...
Regardless of which stove it is......

GVA, you wouldn't be suggesting that a buyer of a new stove who went through 2 motors in a few months is being a tough customer? Or that they should learn how to re-engineer their stove?

Something is wrong..... but in general it should not be up to the customer to fix it.

 

[cold-n-michigan]

It has been less then a month for our two motors. With the second motor gone we checked the voltage to the motor. There is 122 vac to it all the time, even when the unit is shut down. Unplug the unit plug it back in and there is 122 volts before the unit is started. I would think the auger would have continued to turn for years before taking out the motor. 25PVD

 

[bret4]

I have to agree that the way the augers are run in these pellet stoves is just not the way to do it. The only reason I can see to use the motors they use is so they can sell replacements. They are just not powerful enough for the job. If and or when one of my motors goes I'll be looking at a way to add a more powerful motor. Putting the auger right in the burn pot is a poor design too. You would think they would put the auger on a angle of at least 45' so that it would push the pellets up hill and maybe some of the dust would not sit in the tube. Then the pellets would slide down a shoot to the burn pot so as not to get hard deposits on the end of the auger tube.

Don't get me wrong. I love my stove for the price I got it for. The price of these stoves is right where everyone else should be selling them for. They are put together nice and strong. Sounds like some other stoves use the same under powered auger motors used in these stoves. See them for sale on ebay. I guess they don't want to raise the cost and change the control board to handle the power of a stronger motor. If a product is making you the big bucks why change it?

 

[GVA]

Tough crowd here these days...
Regardless of which stove it is......

GVA, you wouldn't be suggesting that a buyer of a new stove who went through 2 motors in a few months is being a tough customer? Or that they should learn how to re-engineer their stove?
Nope.. The tough crowd is refering to those that say certain stoves are built cheap, you get what you pay for Etc..
As far reengineering I leave that to the pro's now, like Corie but I have some ideas... ;-)

Something is wrong..... but in general it should not be up to the customer to fix it.

Yes something is wrong but in this case it is up to the customer to fix it because Englander doesn't have dealer service, but from what I hear they have great tech support...

 

[GVA]

I guess they don't want to raise the cost and change the control board to handle the power of a stronger motor.

All they need to change is the ratio if that were the case.
anyway those little gearmotors put out a heck of alot of torque.
The ones on the Harman are like a 800 to 1 ratio at 4 RPM..............It's enough to bend the mount, or in most cases strip the last gear in the reducer if caught in a bind, greater than the 128inch pounds of torque it can generate.

 

[MButkus]

This sounds like a job for "Myth Busters" Pellet stove torque... can it crush metal !

Torque depends on the force of the first gear. No matter what gear reduction. Yes you gain, but really, how much can you gain from a bathroom fan motor ?
Clocks have a small electrical motor, geared way down.. you can stop the second hand, can't you ?
Oh. If the grease fell down, then the gear wheels would bring it back up, wouldn't it?

The auger can't have 120V all the time.. it would spill out pellets constantly at the constant top speed. The control panel just turns on/off the 120V.
And since there are no electronics in the auger motor for speed control, there is not much to break. It's ever brusherless...
They should put a grease gun nipple on the auger case at one end and a small hole at the other. Every 5 years pump in a shot until it comes out the hole.

My 17 year old Whitfield still has the same auger motor, and both fans. Oh yes.. I did add a $.06 washer to the back of the auger motor... I forgot that expense.
According to a few part pages, the auger motors are basically the same on many models. Depends on the RPM of the stove.

 

[drizler]

I have been through 2 motors in 4 years. A couple incidents with a piece of shale from the bed of my truck and a small number 6 nail then this year a piece of steel from the pellet mill. It doesn't take much to jam one of those motors. Was your auger jammed when you found it? Thats what seems to nearly always cause the gears to fail. As for the quality they are all the same right. None make a motor themselves, rather they all are off the shelf from whatever vendor and the ones have seen are all top quality like Dayton or Fasco. Find the cross reference for the motor and you can get them fairly cheap from Grainger or Mcmaster Carr. Someone has the correct model for those motors. It is a good idea to have one on hand. I have 4 for mine but I got them for a deal of about 35 apiece. They make a gazillion types and sizes of those gearmotors so make sure you get the right model as they nearly all look exactly alike. The motor isn't what fails its always the gear box. They bust the teeth on one or 2 of the gears. Whatever you do save the old ones for parts as its not hard to piece a good one together from a couple broken ones, just switch out the bad gears. Too bad, they broke on you so soon though. I would be wanting something from the manufacturer if I was in your shoes.

 

[GVA]

[quote author="MButkus" date="1202625869"]This sounds like a job for "Myth Busters" Pellet stove torque... can it crush metal !

Torque depends on the force of the first gear. No matter what gear reduction. Yes you gain, but really, how much can you gain from a bathroom fan motor ?
Clocks have a small electrical motor, geared way down.. you can stop the second hand, can't you ?
What is the torque on a second hand anyway
I can stop a fan with my finger but wouldn't want to try to stop and auger with my hand :cheese:
Oh. If the grease fell down, then the gear wheels would bring it back up, wouldn't it?
It's not Gear oil.... it's grease once it gets flung away from the spur gears it doesn't flow back, it may work if the gearcase were completely packed but most are not...

quote]