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Envi Blocks will void my stove warranty!

Post in 'The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces' started by isipwater, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. Dave A.

    Dave A. Minister of Fire

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    Sounds like the same issue as with the bio bricks -- not cord wood. The problem comes in when you're burning this stuff by itself in a full load, higher chance of overfiring. Mixed in with the marginal firewood to get the mean moisture content down, there shouldn't be a problem.
    As far as these 5x5x5 pallets as originally described before I saw the picture -- was picturing a more dense packing like tightly stacked cordwood. What's pictured with all those gaps and spaces, looks much less than 125cu ft.

    Was a little surprised you cancelled the bio bricks, but if you really want to follow that 'cordwood only' dictate to the letter, you shouldn't use these hardwood scraps either.

    Personally, think that's being a little overcautious. A woodburner needs to think for himself to a certain extent and be reasonable. Mixing either the bio bricks or the hardwood scraps with your not fully seasoned firewood should work the way you want. Get an instant read laser thermo and keep an eye on stove temps to make sure you're not overfiring until you get surer about what you're doing.
    isipwater likes this.

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  2. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    isipwater likes this.
  3. kumastoves

    kumastoves Member

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    I vote for the blocks. These guys are all right, mix them in a little, don't burn too many at a time and just watch stove temps closely till your used to the burn characteristics. You'd have the same learning curve with seasoned cord wood anyway.

    I can tell you this... Your conscious and conservative approach to burning those blocks will treat that stove a lot better than a good portion of new wood burners would with seasoned oak.

    Only in this age of corporate insensitivity would you be told to use your stove as a trinket holder because you can't get dry wood this year. I'm not pointing fingers here and honestly would have to see the top of the thread to even recall what stove brand we're talking about.

    Bottom line is this: no way you're gonna hurt that stove in one season of cautious use with the blocks. If your stove manufacturer still cares, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt, they would tell you exactly what these guys are saying, to use them with caution. They would not pin you to the fine print.

    Sorry, kinda turned into a rant about corporate America.
    isipwater likes this.
  4. Hoozie

    Hoozie New Member

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    Aren't there metal tabs that can made with very specific melting points? Rivet one of them inside/outside the box, and if it melts off, warranty is now void.

    I also really like the paragraph about ideal stovetop temperatures.

    Edit: Heat tabs! Would need a higher melting point, but the same idea. http://www.engineheattabs.com/buy-engine-heat-tabs/engine-heat-tabs.html
  5. blades

    blades Minister of Fire

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    I do understand the difficulty in education of the public in specific areas that are outside their normal comfort zone. ( dealt with it for 30 years) There are those that just are not open minded enough or incapable of comprehending various areas of our lives. ( see how nice I can be, could have said the same thing in four words). Anyway the posts above from Jason give rise to hope for the industry, just need more mfgs to be more open minded in relation to a fuel source that in the future will likely play a much larger roll than it does now state side. What really kinda pulls a chain is companies stating that compressed blocks are not to be used/ will void warranty, when that is such a large part of the fuel source in Europe and other areas for the same product.
    isipwater likes this.
  6. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    We have lots more lawyers here than in Europe. ;)
  7. blades

    blades Minister of Fire

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    For all the hot air , very low btu value, but they do burn. Drying them out can be quite challenging though.;lol
    Mary Briggeman, NortheastAl and Jags like this.
  8. kumastoves

    kumastoves Member

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    Emailed the Lab that handles our safety listings and this is what I got:

    Jason,

    I am generally uncomfortable with explicitly permitting use of a fuel that we did not do any testing with, for example, stating on your label and manual “For use with pressed logs” without any sort of caveat. There is standard for compressed logs, UL 2115 “Processed Solid Fuel Firelogs.” If you wanted to add some information to your labels and manuals about processed logs, it should require the use of logs listed to this standard along with a warning to only burn one log at a time.

    Best Regards,
  9. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay - this was funny as heck.;lol

    Only burn one log at a time? That would make a pretty useless heater.
  10. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    Very interesting, thanks for posting that. Two thoughts come to my mind. First, it is probably about time that manufacturers think about how to handle compressed wood logs in the future. I doubt they are going away and it would also be a disservice to their customers. Maybe some additional safety testing would be required, maybe it turns out to be a rather benign problem if people watch their stove thermometers. If Kuma wants to take charge with that problem many people would certainly appreciate it.

    Second, I am not an insider but I doubt that the testing fuel encompasses all potential wood types that someone can put in. How would the safety recommendation look like if someone stuffs his stove full with well dried pine? Would the labs be ok with that although strictly speaking it is still "cord wood"? Wood stoves have the problem that there is no standardized fuel. Maybe the safety testing should then mimic a variety of fuel sources instead of going for some "average" standard. Just a thought.
    firefighterjake likes this.
  11. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    I think the lab brings up a good point and do agree that one wants to be specific for the qualifying logs. A lot of the angst is because of the ubiquitous waxed logs available at every grocery store. These are a different animal from the Northern Idaho logs or BioBricks. Wax impregnated Duraflame logs should not be burned in a stove. The language used would need to be quite specific to prevent misunderstanding. Having a specific standard for wood stove approved logs would help here.

    Note that the lab's language echos that on the Duraflame log site. They tout UL approval, but warn to burn only one log at a time. Methinks we need a woodstove specific standard here.
  12. Jags

    Jags Moderate Moderator Staff Member

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    NOW you are talking. Then the stove MFG's could test to those specs and the log MFG's would have to maintain the minimum specifications. Good call.
    Trilifter7 likes this.
  13. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Just stating that only compressed wood products composed solely of wood fiber are acceptable would be a first step. Personally I don't like the low compression wood products, they outgas too quickly. A spec setting the minimum compression would help cull out these products from the higher standard.
  14. alforit

    alforit Feeling the Heat

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    !!!
  15. Treacherous

    Treacherous Minister of Fire

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    The most I ever use is 4 of the Idaho energy logs on a cold stove. Normally just two with the rest being cordwood.
  16. kumastoves

    kumastoves Member

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    I only used 9 at once the one time. It was experimental though I did do it for the burn time. For the record, I don't recommend burning more than 2-3 at once and mixing with cord wood is wise.

    If I have a good coal bed though and fill the stove with seasoned Tamarack (western larch), I have a glowing stove top in 10 to 20 minutes easy. The chimney is about 22 feet tall with 18 feet being insulated and all but 3 feet inside the home. I'm borderline on needing a damper.
  17. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor Minister of Fire

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    I dont think you will have many 5ft pieces in there, just a bin that is 5ft. I bet you will have a bunch of stuff down to as small as like 2" sections of stair treads that are cut off. Basically everything that they can pick up easy.
  18. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor Minister of Fire

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    I would think that if you could get one of the scrap bins and some biobricks and your not so great cord wood you could dial in a pretty good loading situation. Maybe really small scraps of oak splits on the cutoff from the carpenter to get a coal be then load some more scrap and cordwood with a biobrick burried in the back?? Some combination you come up with will give you better burn time. and get the total MC in the STOVE load down to an acceptable amount since the MC in the bircks would be almost nothing and the scraps are prolly 8-10% and then your cordwood is 30% by burn time. This would be no different in the right mix than a stove of 19% MC hardwood in my opinion .
    isipwater likes this.
  19. isipwater

    isipwater Feeling the Heat

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    Here is what I got from my email with Travis Industries (Lopi / Avalon) about burning kiln dried firewood:

    To Travis Industries from me:

    Hello,

    I am about to get my first Travis (Lopi Endeavor) stove installed and
    I have a technical question.

    Will I void my warranty if I burn kiln dried cord firewood. I looked
    through the Endeavor manual and could not find the answer.

    Sincerely,

    xxxx xxxx

    From Travis to me:

    Hello,

    Thank you for purchasing one of our products. Kiln dried would will burn to quickly which will over fire the unit causing premature failure and possible non-repairable damage. Seasoned cord wood is the only wood we recommend for use in our appliances. I hope this is helpful.

    Regards,

    xxxx xxxx

    To Travis from me:

    Hi xxxx,

    Since it is my first year burning I am having difficulty getting truly seasoned firewood. If I was careful with mixing kiln dried with regular cord wood and used a thermometer to make sure I don't over fire, would this automatically void my warranty?

    From Travis to me:

    I understand your situation. Our manual is clear regarding the type of wood that should be utilized. I would recommend talking to your dealer regarding typical burning in your area.

    Thanks,

    xxxx
  20. Grisu

    Grisu Minister of Fire

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    What does the stove help you if you cannot find the "approved" wood to burn? That response keeps me wondering how they will react if the stove has an actual problem. Since almost all EPA stoves are good heaters one of the more important distinguishing factors is customer service IMHO. I will leave it at that.
    isipwater likes this.
  21. isipwater

    isipwater Feeling the Heat

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    Yes, evade and dismiss.
  22. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The next recommendation will be to talk to their lawyer, lol. There's little commonsense judgement here so they'll let the dealer provide that, hopefully.
  23. ridemgis

    ridemgis Member

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    Like you, I was terribly worried about overfiring and damaging my first-ever woodstove last winter. I also bought the stove mid-summer when seasoned wood was scarce. (Truth be told, in my area seasoned means it was cut the winter prior and split the day before delivery.) So for a premium price I bought two cords of kiln dried red and white oak.

    I started small, paid attention to stove and flue temps, and very quickly learned how and when to pack the firebox right up to the burn tubes for a long overnight burn with that beautiful, dry oak. I will admit that it took a while before I could sleep through the night without getting up a couple of times to check on things!

    If you're anything like the rest of us, you'll find that figuring all this out is actually a lot of fun. And your stove is probably more forgiving than Lopi's lawyers want you to believe. If however you're likely to stuff in an armload of kiln dried or BioBricks, toss in a match and head off to the gym, then yes, you will overfire and void your warranty.

    PJ
  24. isipwater

    isipwater Feeling the Heat

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    Thanks for sharing your experience. Hope you have some seasoned wood now!!
  25. baldhead

    baldhead New Member

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    That letter is called CYA... I wouldn't have bought their stove if I knew the bio bricks would void warranty.. would be nice if they could thicken the walls, beef up the welds or change the design so they can warranty the stove. The stove can handle the bricks but I guess I can see how someone could melt it if they were totally clueless.

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