Enviro EF3 , I'm Stumped "HELP"

[gutterboy2ca]

OK guys, been trying to help a friend with his stove since its identical to mine.I thought it was just dirty since he had never taken it completely apart for cleaning.So, I did.
The Prob is it appears to burn Decent, but not as hot a flame as mine after thorough cleanout and disassembly.I've removed all the Blowers, cleaned the Exhaust pipe,removed the Cast Iron Panels behind the fake Brick Panel,Reassembled everything, fired it up,ran decent for 6 to 8 hours.When he went into his store the next morn, same thing as before.Stove was out, room full of smoke,pellets overflowed the Pot and had burned a pyramid of pellets up the chute.Flame when light resembles a Candle, dark orange,lotsa black soot on the glass just overnight.
I Noticed when i put a hair dryer behind the stove and on LOW put some more air in the Fresh Air Intake, smoke came out from top of the Ash Drawer, after examining the mark the Gasket leaves on the ash drawer, there is no imprint on the top right at all.If the ash drawer is pulled open during stove running, there is absolutely NO CHANGE in Flame appearance.I told him to try a new Gasket on the ash drawer,other then that, what else would make the combustion chamber have no pressure,its gotta be sucking air somewhere else.Could it be a sensor? Thanks

 

[nailed_nailer]

There should be a huge dramatic difference in flame height/quality between the ash pan open/closed.

If you are not seeing any difference then he needs a new ashpan seal.

If it is like my old EF-2 the ashpan needs to wiggle into place. The turn latch should not have any resistance when locked.
If it feel like the turn latch is stiff then the pan is not sealed to the stove body.

Replacement gaskets can be found at any stove shop or online.

Once replaced it should be able to pass the "Dollar Bill Test" (do a search on here for the test)

Other areas of concern to look for would be;
A weak combustion blower.
A bad door seal.
Blocked intake air passage.

Any of those will result in lousy burn.

Good Luck.
---Nailer---

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

How long has this been going on?

If since day one, check his venting for being over limit.

Is the impeller on the combustion blower properly positioned so it can actually force the air out the vent?

 

[gutterboy2ca]

Its something that has just started since his return from vacation and stove being shut off for 2 weeks, so he says.As for the Combustion Blower, that is my suspicion.But to my knowledge, theres only one way to position the blower motor after removing for cleaning.It has 6 bolts holding the blower to the housing, but its just a wheel/turbine inside,should go in any position,boltwise, unless for some reason his neighbour who cleaned it before me,plugged the blower wires in reverse,changing the polarity/rotation of the turbine, hmm, never thought to look at that, but i wouldn,t think there would be any smoke exiting the flu if that was the case.
I'm gonna pop my combustion blower off my stove tomorrow and try on his just for the heck of it.

http://youtu.be/rQgead0Y3Fs (Lazy Flame EF3)

 

[pip3398]

Its something that has just started since his return from vacation and stove being shut off for 2 weeks, so he says.As for the Combustion Blower, that is my suspicion.But to my knowledge, theres only one way to position the blower motor after removing for cleaning.It has 6 bolts holding the blower to the housing, but its just a wheel/turbine inside,should go in any position,boltwise, unless for some reason his neighbour who cleaned it before me,plugged the blower wires in reverse,changing the polarity/rotation of the turbine, hmm, never thought to look at that, but i wouldn,t think there would be any smoke exiting the flu if that was the case.
I'm gonna pop my combustion blower off my stove tomorrow and try on his just for the heck of it.

http://youtu.be/rQgead0Y3Fs (Lazy Flame EF3)

Hi, A/C motors only turn one way. Doesn't make any difference in the wires. There are only a few thinks it can be like the ones mentioned by others. It really sounds like an ash pan latching issue. Check and make sure the latch is pulling tight. We used to have to periodically bend the tab that the latch catches on EF-2's to get them tight. If the pan moves at all when latched then it needs adjusting. If the blower had an issue, you would probably hear it. They don't usually slow down unless there is a bearing dragging. Also check the intake air and are you 100% that you got all of the exhaust passages clean?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Ok, my comment on positioning is for the impeller on the shaft, the impeller acts as air scoops and if it is not at the proper distance out on the shaft it can loose a bit of its ability to send the air out the vent. Please note this also means that using the wrong thickness of gasket material can have an impact.

That unit you posted a picture of looks like an open frame motor and if the field coil is flipped it will indeed rotate in the other direction.

 

[pip3398]

Ok, my comment on positioning is for the impeller on the shaft, the impeller acts as air scoops and if it is not at the proper distance out on the shaft it can loose a bit of its ability to send the air out the vent. Please note this also means that using the wrong thickness of gasket material can have an impact.

That unit you posted a picture of looks like an open frame motor and if the field coil is flipped it will indeed rotate in the other direction.

I was making the assumption that no one flipped the field coil. It looks pretty dusty. I don't think it's been that far apart in some time. I know they pulled the blower, but just to clean the housing.

 

[gutterboy2ca]

thanks for the input guys, really appreciate it.I know its gotta be something simple, just can,t see what would change while he was on Vaca,worked fine before, now not? doesn,t make sense.I checked the Ash drawer as first suspect,gasket looked same as mine, pretty flat, before replacing ash pan gasket i took a roll of 3M double sided tape with me,ran a bead all the way around the ash pan itself where i could see the Gasket had left an imprint.It definately made the latch alot tighter, but did nothing at all for the flame.Still seems to me like its a prob with the Combustion blower,pipes are clean as a whistle, stove has been thoroughly cleaned inside out.With the exception of sticking a shopvac in the Fresh Air intake to make sure a mouse didn,t build a nest or some stupid thing,and checking rotation of the combustion fan, i'm pretty well at a loss.Gonna tell him not to be so cheap, sell it to me for $100 and go buy a new stove,lol....

 

[gutterboy2ca]

Ok, my comment on positioning is for the impeller on the shaft, the impeller acts as air scoops and if it is not at the proper distance out on the shaft it can loose a bit of its ability to send the air out the vent. Please note this also means that using the wrong thickness of gasket material can have an impact.

That unit you posted a picture of looks like an open frame motor and if the field coil is flipped it will indeed rotate in the other direction.

I was making the assumption that no one flipped the field coil. It looks pretty dusty. I don't think it's been that far apart in some time. I know they pulled the blower, but just to clean the housing.

pip3398, that actual blower is my stove, i live 20 miles from him, and snapped pic of mine so you guys could see what blower model we were working with,sorry, should have clarified that upon submission of the pic, my bad.

 

[nailed_nailer]

The combustion air path on my EF-2 (I assume same for your EF-3) is
In from the fresh air intake. 2" vent hole on rear of stove.
Thru the rear of unit under the hopper into the firebox at the rear of the burn pot.
The burn pot has a liner (bent steel part with holes all over it) in it that holds the pellets suspended in the air column.
The liner will direct the fresh air around the burning pellets and upward as smoke.
The smoke passes the heat exchanger tubes and are sucked down the passages behind the fire brick.
It then goes thru the exhaust vent damper (attached to side knob on left side of stove)
Then the exhaust goes into the combustion blower and plenum.
The blower sucks it in in the center and expels it out the top left to the Vent stack.

The whole firebox runs under negative pressure caused by the exhaust blower and a bit of natural convection.
Any infiltrating air not in the above air path will result in a diminished burn quality.

Like I said Air leaks from door seals, ash pan seals, or fire box leaks will affect flame quality.

Areas to look closely at are;
All seals. Ensure good seals with dollar bill test.
Air intake path not blocked. Run a brush down it.
Ensure the burn pot liner is sitting flush to the burn pot top edges.
If excessive warped it will allow air to go around the liner. Front and back edges should be straight.
Damper setting. Set for 1/2 out to start.
Exhaust vent path not blocked. You said it is clean.
Combustion blower clean and running correctly.
Combustion blower can be pulled off the plenum and removed.
While out, clean the exhaust plenum with vacuum and scraper/brush.
I clean my blower with a stiff toothbrush and carburetor cleaner on the metal blades.
The blower can be wired directly to household voltage (120VAC) to check for operation using a lamp cord directly connected to the two blower wires.
Also worth checking for voltage at combustion blower while running. See what power is available at the leads when plugged into the blower connections.

Past that I'm stumped.

Good Luck,
---Nailer---

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Here nailer, let me add to your list.

Improperly seated burn pot or burn pot liner can allow air to bypass the pellet pile leading to a bad burn (dirty, poor flame).

Ash anywhere in the combustion air path. Far more than just the vent that has to be clean.

gutterboy2ca my first thing to try would be my friend the giant sucker aka leaf blower and a good stiff brush in any ash traps.

 

[gutterboy2ca]

OK boys, back after working on that G'D'thing from 10 this morn till 3 this afternoon.I completely dissasembled that bugger, even the box that holds the damper to the stove, although there really was no need,other then my own satisfaction.when removing combustion Blower,and 3 inside panels behind burn pot, i could see clean thru to combustion chamber with a flashlight on other side, clean as a whistle.Re-cleaned all sections of flu top to bottom(hadn,t burned for 8 hours since last clean.Tried my combustion fan which is only 1 year old.I did notice maybe 200 to 300 rpm diff by ear,his is an 06 model.All that, still did nothing.
I asked how long his air exchange tube cleaner was seized, he said 2 years(gulp). 2 hours later after scraping,chiseling,sanding the tubes with 80 grit sand paper,vacumning every particle i could find up top.Tried it one last time and Holy Frig.It worked""Flame was Just like a Freakin Blow torch.His tubes had absolutely NO Air passing over them.Gaps around and above completely closed off.Does the air somehow circulate over these and back down the back side of the 3 steel panels?creating a type of vortex?First thing i noticed diff upon starting the stove was the air moving dust around inside the burn chamber,this was not present before.Once the pellets ignited it ran like a top.Fingers crossed as it also worked like this for 8 hours last time before shutting itself off in Midnight, and smoking out the entire store..Heres Fingers crossed,lol.
PS thanks for all the tips and help,even though i had already crossed out every stinkin one of them except scraping the air tubes,whod'a thought..Not Me..

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The exhaust gases have to go around and through the heat exchanger tubes to get out of the stove.

Usually people complain about low heat before it gets so bad it is burning dirty.

Once again a clean stove is a happy, safe, and warm stove.

 

[nailed_nailer]

Most pellet stoves really are a simple machine to operate.

Just a few basics and they run well.

Kinda like the old "Air---Spark---Fuel" thing we say about engines.

Guess for a pellet stove it would be

"Air---Fuel---Vent"

Not much else that can go wrong with them.

Glad you got it working. Feels good don't it.

---Nailer---