EPA ?

[Crabbypatty]

i just installed a Tractor supply wood furnace (US Stove i think) for a friend of mine and i realized it doesn't have any kind of epa stuff. no cat, no refractory shoe everburn thingy, not even a friggin damper whats the deal? why are they exempt from smoking the world out? :question:

 

[downeast]

Yes Virginia , some stoves are exempt. One quite elite Scandinavian line , Rais, is called a "cook stove". They are not subject to EPA regs. ;-) ;-)

 

[73blazer]

Only a few states have regulations on wood stoves that are sold. Mostly I think it's just county and local areas that have regulations (usually found in valleys and other areas where stagnant air might collect the woodsmoke), and that is usually only on the installation and actually burning of. (in other words, they don't ban the sale of, just the installation and usage of).
So, the long and short of it is, one needs to know what they are buying and make no assumptions on what it has.

 

[downeast]

Only a few states have regulations on wood stoves that are sold. Mostly I think it's just county and local areas that have regulations (usually found in valleys and other areas where stagnant air might collect the woodsmoke), and that is usually only on the installation and actually burning of. (in other words, they don't ban the sale of, just the installation and usage of).
So, the long and short of it is, one needs to know what they are buying and make no assumptions on what it has.

"EPA" is Fed. :red:

 

[Highbeam]

To be clear here, we are talking about a wood furnace and not a stove. EPA stoves are required in my local jurisdiction but furnaces might be exempt. Just becuase you can't see the damper or EPA stuff doesn't mean it isn't there. The furnace must have a damper or else it would go nuclear just like the everburn shoe system would cause.

 

[InTheRockies]

Personally, I would not buy a non-EPA stove. More and more states have regions that restrict the use of non-EPA stoves. Imposition of bans on using non-EPA stoves is a function of monitoring for compliance with the Clean Air Act. You're seeing a routine expansion of areas with such bans, especially in less populated states out west that haven't implemented strict car and industrial emission standards, in an effort to meet particulate standards set by EPA regulations. After surviving several court challenges, the newest particulate standard regulation is now in place--PM25. All scientific experts agree that no state will meet this new, tougher standard. As periodic test results are reviewed and it becomes clear just how far states' compliance efforts are failing to meet this lower PM standard, expect to see more draconian measures imposed on a variety of personal and commercial activities. I expect to see a nationwide ban on the use of non-EPA compliant stoves. I also wouldn't be surprised to see an EPA Phase III standard set for all solid fuel appliances. Right now, we don't know who will be chosen to head the EPA under the new administration and just how radical the agenda might be for the agency. It appears that there will be an effort to get the Senate to ratify the Kyoto protocols. If that occurs, watch out. Anything's fair game, including the possibility of banning the individual use of solid fuel appliances. (EU regulators are in the process of drafting their equivalent of the EPA's PM 25 regulations--they've had a number of public conferences and it's clear that they're looking to discourage the individual use of solid burning fuels. One proposal they've been discussing is a new annual tax on solid fuel appliances operated by individuals.)

 

[73blazer]

Only a few states have regulations on wood stoves that are sold. Mostly I think it's just county and local areas that have regulations (usually found in valleys and other areas where stagnant air might collect the woodsmoke), and that is usually only on the installation and actually burning of. (in other words, they don't ban the sale of, just the installation and usage of).
So, the long and short of it is, one needs to know what they are buying and make no assumptions on what it has.

"EPA" is Fed. :red:

Yes, but my point was the EPA only certifies and rates stoves, there is no federal level or EPA regulation saying every stove/furnace model sold must be certified by the EPA and no federal regulation saying a stove cannot emit more than X grams/hour of particulate into the air. To be classified as a PhaseII stove, it has to be certified and emit less than X amount, but anyone can still manufacture and sell any style stove they want for the most part. There are plenty of non-epa stoves/furnaces/fireplaces on the market. Lots of homes are still built with old-style masonry fireplaces (no, not the EPA Kozy heat either, the giant, high smoke shelf, 10" clay flue stuff), and people do use them to attempt to heat their home (I would't, but I know people who do). I was in the hardware store last week, they had some generic looking (I didn't catch the make) smaller style stove for $300. It had a damper on the exit flue, but no epa certification, no secondary air injector or cat, just a round, pinned in the middle plate you would spin to choke off the air supply on the door, old style cast iron stove.

 

[webbie]

Yes, but my point was the EPA only certifies and rates stoves, there is no federal level or EPA regulation saying every stove/furnace model sold must be certified by the EPA and no federal regulation saying a stove cannot emit more than X grams/hour of particulate into the air. To be classified as a PhaseII stove, it has to be certified and emit less than X amount, but anyone can still manufacture and sell any style stove they want for the most part. There are plenty of non-epa stoves/furnaces/fireplaces on the market.

Not exactly right, IMHO.

There are Federal Regulations - a law, published in the Federal Register, etc. which requires all "space heating" stoves which are classified as "airtights" and are of a portable nature to be approved. That is a requirement in all 50 states.

There are loopholes as well as units which are not covered, including:
1. Stove or fireplaces that let plenty of excess air in.
2. Stoves that weigh over a certain amount (850 lbs?)
3. Stoves that burn coal
4. Cookstoves
5. Central heaters

The vast majority of wood space heaters sold are therefore required to meet EPA specs. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are not the rule and it is misleading for folks to think EPA is not a mandate - it is.

See:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/EPA_Exempt_Stoves

 

[Crabbypatty]

I understand now....this central unit is huge compared to my VC Encore, and it seems to be exempt, according to Craig's article. i installed a damper in the flue pipe, as the instructions said to do, but still this unit's effiency must be low, maybe thats why the firebox is so big. i guess it will heat his 850 sq ft ranch without a problem.

 

[Ken45]

We have one of those TSC US Stove Hotblast wood furnaces, it was here when we bought the house. They do an excellent job of providing heat. Burned right, I don't think the emissions are too bad but probably not as good as an EPA rated wood stove.

We bought a PE Summit wood stove this year. It certainly has more ambiance and seems to use less wood, but takes more tending. So far, it's been doing a good job and we are very happy with it.

Ken

 

[73blazer]

Not exactly right, IMHO.

There are Federal Regulations - a law, published in the Federal Register, etc. which requires all "space heating" stoves which are classified as "airtights" and are of a portable nature to be approved. That is a requirement in all 50 states.

There are loopholes as well as units which are not covered, including:
1. Stove or fireplaces that let plenty of excess air in.
2. Stoves that weigh over a certain amount (850 lbs?)
3. Stoves that burn coal
4. Cookstoves
5. Central heaters

The vast majority of wood space heaters sold are therefore required to meet EPA specs. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are not the rule and it is misleading for folks to think EPA is not a mandate - it is.

See:
https://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/wiki/EPA_Exempt_Stoves

Well, I'm sure your correct about the law, but I would have never guessed that, and forgive me for somewhat derailing this thread, but I want to make sure I fully understand. I guess I was making more of an educated assumption considering what I've seen in the last 12months of shopping here. Every Tractor Supply CO, HVAC contractor, fireplace shop and even some hardware stores I've walked into in this state and Ohio (and I visited many before making a decision this past summer on my newly installed selection) has a whole slew of crappy smoke monster stoves. Stoves obviously don't mean fireplaces either, practically every Pulte & similar subdivision home built during the now termed housing boom has a wide open 40" ZC fireplace, the high end homes got a wide open masonry version, which blow up to 95% of their emissions and heat into the air. Now that I think about it, many if the low end hardware store models had a tea kettle on top of it, perhaps more are taking advantage of the exemptions and classifying as a cookstove (Look Mr. EPA, if we include a tea kettle, then it['s a cook stove right!?). We recently moved into this home, while we were shopping for homes in 2006 and early 2007, several homes we walked into (these are not subdivision homes we were looking at) had a stove in the living room or kitchen, which by most practical standards were not cooking stoves, but probably classified as such because they were not what we would call an EPA stove. These weren't old homes either, I've seen many horror story stoves (and installs) in older homes we looked at.

Anyhow, I would say, and this is the part that perhaps is at odds in my brain with your statement, is the majority sold are smoke monsters with no labeling about EPA and no efficiency equipment on it whatsoever, because they are cheap & that is what is most appealing to the average person looking to offset their heating bills. All the fireplace shops had the name brand stoves, sure, but they also had, a large line of off-brand $500 price point stoves, which when I looked at them, again had nothing EPA about it. Is that not how it is in stove/fireplace shops in other parts of the US? Most people, I would say, are not purchasing the high end $1000+, name brand stoves, that would obviously preclude most people on this forum, and most people who associate with people on this forum, but let's not kid ourselves, the vast majority of wood burners, unfortunately, probably aren't visiting here. But, it's probably not the wisest thing for me to make an assumption based off of what one has seen in only a small area of the US. I did happen to visit a fireplace shop in California while I was there on a business trip, EPA was definitely a much bigger theme there than it is here in Michigan.

In any event, this one sounds more like a central heater, so again would be exempt.

 

[InTheRockies]

The Clean Air Act is federal law and is the basis for the EPA's authority to create federal regulations that set standards for emissions from all sources, personal and commercial. States must meet the standards set by the EPA or lose federal funding for roads, etc. and possibly face further adverse regulatory actions. Most densely-populated states back east have tried to use a combination of industrial regulations and car emissions testing to reduce their air pollution, but many still can't meet old EPA standards. The EPA's new standard, PM25, is so tough all scientific experts agree that none of the 50 states will meet it. At this point, not knowing who will be the nominee to head the EPA, it's hard to say how radical the agenda for the agency will be under the new administration. There are some who have a voice at the table for the transition who are more radical in terms of proposals for extensive EPA regulation of personal and commercial activities related to air emissions. Once the first reviews of states' efforts to comply with the new PM25 standards reveal just how off the mark all 50 states are, expect to see proposals to mandate state action to reduce emissions. I expect those mandates to include a nation wide ban on the use of any non-EPA compliant stove. In addition, the EPA may issue new Phase III standards that will apply to all solid fuel burning appliances, no exceptions this time.

Another factor that may come into play with respect to broadened EPA powers under the new administration is Senate ratification of the Kyoto protocols. There supposedly will be a push to have the Senate take it up again. If the treaty is ratified, watch out. Anything is game including a complete ban on individual use of solid fuel appliances. As I noted earlier, EU regulators are in the process of enacting their equivalent of the EPA's PM25 regulations. They've got to meet Kyoto Protocol standards and are trying to draft their regulations to discourage personal use of solid fuel appliances. An idea that they're considering using is an annual tax on solid fuel appliances used by individuals (they aren't as inclined towards complete bans as US authorities are).