Ethanol Exorcism

[peakbagger]

There is an article in Northern Woodlands Magazine this issue about ethanol in gas and the impact to chainsaws and small engines. Apparently even though there only should be 10% max ethanol in fuel, field tests have found up to 20% out of the pumps.

hey also describe the a way to get ethanol free gas which is setting up a container that will hold 5 gallons with a sloped bottom with a valve on the outlet. Pour in five gallons of gas and then mix in 2 quarts of water. The ethanol will mix with the water and will separate from the gas. Then drain off the milky stuff and set it aside. The remaining gas is pure. The author uses the mix of water and ethanol for windshield washer fluid, so nothing is wasted.

The article is currently not on line but give it a month and they normally open the articles up to online.

I have seen similar descriptions before but generally Northern Woodlands is pretty reliable. I need to look around for the right container to set this up. The person in the article uses a old propane tank with the top cut off.

 

[F4jock]

You'll be wasting gas if you do it. To properly decant so there is no water mixed in with your gas you'll either have to trash the interface or risk water in the gas or gas in the water / alcohol mixture. Been running my small engines on the ethanol-laden crap for years. While I hate it there has been no damage at all.

 

[Jags]

There used to be a member here that used a 5 gallon carboy type container to do this. If I remember correctly...he stated that you have to shake the container after the water addition and then let it settle out.

 

[Rock Crusher]

Using water to precipitate ethanol out of the gasoline is very simple/cheap-however, on ethanol blended gasoline, ethanol is used as an octane enhancer. Take away the ethanol and 87 octane becomes 82/83 octane. Retired gasoline chemist provided this info to me. Stihl carries a simple ethanol tester for less than $3.00. So far I have only found ethanol at between 5 and 10%.

 

[Tenn Dave]

In my area of Tennessee there are a lot of gas stations that offer ethanol free gas at about 30 cents more per gallon.

 

[wahoowad]

In my area of Tennessee there are a lot of gas stations that offer ethanol free gas at about 30 cents more per gallon.

Yeah, just go buy some e-free gas and avoid all that questionable work to derive it. I keep 2 5-gal containers and fill one about every 6 months.

 

[peakbagger]

Unfortunately there are no stations in my region that sell ethanol free gas. The area is a hot bed for ATVs and I expect someone could do well selling ethanol free.

 

[firefighterjake]

I'm just a dumb firefighter so take my opinion for what it's worth . . . but a) I'm not sure I would want to add water to gasoline and chance having a bunch of water get into my gas tank (since I'm pretty sure water doesn't burn all that well) and b) just like F4Jock I'm not a huge fan of ethanol in the gas (and I know this is purely anecdotal), but so far I've run three vehicles, one push mower, one riding mower, one chainsaw, one weedbeater, one woodsplitter, an ATV, two snowmobiles (plus two more if you count my brother-in-laws's two sleds), one generator and one pressure washer with no issues.

Check that . . . my brother in law had one sled that had to have the tank flushed and carb cleaned . . . namely because he had not put any stabilizer in the fuel tank and let the one sled sit from March to January without doing anything to it.

I'm not saying ethanol is the best stuff on earth (I think Snapple holds that honor), but it's also not the Anti-Christ come to Earth to destroy all engines.

 

[Applesister]

I mentioned before the Cell phone App you can download to your phone called PURE GAS. Its free and is completely accurate to vendors selling ethanol free gas AND it uses Google Maps to help you locate stations by mileage to your location.
Google play store

 

[nealj]

If you want to look at reallity instead of heresay about the terrible ethanol what has happened to the shelves full of heat at the gas stations since ethanal has been blended into gasoline? When was the last time you saw a vehicle stalled on the side of the road during the first cold weather of the season because of moisture in the fuel system? As for longevity of engines I would like to see a study of how long cars are lasting today compared to pre ethanol days. I am not saying ethanol is making them last longer,but if it were so terrible we would not have vehicles routinely hitting 250000 mile without being touched. As far as seasonal equipment I remember our first snowmobiles in the late sixties, you counted on a carb clean every year before any fun was had. I run straight from the pump ethenal blend in everything without a problem, that being said I do try to run them empty before long term storage but doesn't always happen.

 

[Razo]

If you want to look at reallity instead of heresay about the terrible ethanol what has happened to the shelves full of heat at the gas stations since ethanal has been blended into gasoline? When was the last time you saw a vehicle stalled on the side of the road during the first cold weather of the season because of moisture in the fuel system? As for longevity of engines I would like to see a study of how long cars are lasting today compared to pre ethanol days. I am not saying ethanol is making them last longer,but if it were so terrible we would not have vehicles routinely hitting 250000 mile without being touched. As far as seasonal equipment I remember our first snowmobiles in the late sixties, you counted on a carb clean every year before any fun was had. I run straight from the pump ethenal blend in everything without a problem, that being said I do try to run them empty before long term storage but doesn't always happen.

You can't correlate a modern car lasting 250,000 to ethanol based gas, wayyyyyy too much at play. From what I've read full size engines don't really mind the ethanol, its the small engines. Present day gasoline now has additives in it that make it far superior to what was out in the 70's or 80's in SPITE of having ethanol in it, not because of it.

Anyway, its something we have to deal with none-the-less. Whether it is good or bad. I put this stuff in all my gas destined for small engines. Is it snake oil? I'm not a chemist so I don't know for sure but it makes me feel better adding it to my gas.

http://www.starbrite.com/en/startron

 

[Grateful11]

There's a few places that have pure gas in NH, may not be close to you though:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NH

Luckily we can get 93 octane pure gas about 3 miles away. It was $3.50/gal. about a month ago.

 

[Corey]

LOL - I don't think you should actually do that. Dumbest thing I've heard in a while! Mixing water with gas to get rid of ethanol is sort of like mixing gasoline with hamburger to get rid of the grease. Hint: the residual of the reaction is much worse than the reactant you were trying to remove in the first place.

You start out with a 10% ethanol/gasoline blend which can absorb water and allow it to burn harmlessly (like adding a bottle of Heet) By adding water, not only have you created gasoline which has essentially zero capacity to absorb any water, you've saturated it with absolutely as much water as it can possibly hold, assuring ANY water at all will fall out of solution.

 

[Knots]

There's a few places that have pure gas in NH, may not be close to you though:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NH

This. I went to that gas station in Freedom awhile ago with some gerry cans and got a stash that I only use in my small engines.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

I also have a few ethanol free gas options where I live. They call it "recreation 90". If you feel like your engine or carburetor is suffering from ethanol mix gasoline, add some seafoam in with your gas

 

[blades]

Ethanol saves Energy- bunk, takes more energy to produce than it saves
Ethanol laced products attack the various types of fuel lines and carburation membranes- mfg are still working on materials that will resist these problems
Ethanol laced products have a very short shelf life as a opposed to fuel without.
Ethanol decreases milage per gallon- true -the higher the percentage of ethanol added the less mileage will be realized due to the lower energy content.
Personally I rate ethanol as just another great Ponzi scheme foisted on the public - ranks right up there with SS, carbon credits and of course the very latest ACA.
Ok got my flack jacket on , and my helmet and I am in my 4 ft thick walled bunker. Have at it.

 

[Corey]

No need for a flack jacket, but I will point out where you're mistaken...

Ethanol saves Energy- bunk, takes more energy to produce than it saves

Maybe 30 years ago, but not so according to many recent sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_energy_balance

http://ethanol.typepad.com/my_weblo...rgy-balance-is-confirmed-by-new-research.html

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/usda-report-shows-positive-energy-benefits-of-ethanol/

Ethanol laced products attack the various types of fuel lines and carburation [sic] membranes- mfg are still working on materials that will resist these problems

…again, about 30 years ago. …natural rubber, latex, hide glue, old phenolic plastics, cow hide leather, etc. If you do have a vintage engine (where gasoline itself has not already destroyed these parts), then keep it away from ethanol containing fuel. But, believe it or not, a decade and a half into the 21st century, we can make plastic withstand simple ethanol.

Ethanol laced products have a very short shelf life as a opposed to fuel without.

Anecdotally, perhaps, but not so, according to many formal sources:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2668/why-does-gasoline-go-stale-so-quickly

On its Web site Chevron claims "federal and California reformulated gasolines will survive storage as well or better than conventional gasoline," and I can't find any good test data to dispute that.

Some of the world’s oldest drinkable alcohol is pegging the 200 year old mark, so apparently it can keep well. Wanna put a can of “real gas” in your shed and get back to it in even a year or so?

http://io9.com/5695539/worlds-oldest-wine-and-beer-finally-gets-drunk-after-200-years

Ethanol decreases milage [sic] per gallon- true -the higher the percentage of ethanol added the less mileage will be realized due to the lower energy content.

While this is somewhat true, everyone seems to be hung up on “mileage” … they gladly bash E10 for offering a few percent lower “mileage” and get all google eyed over diesel for it’s few percent “higher mileage”.

At the E10 level, you’re talking a few percent at most, if you look at E85 for flex fuel vehicles, it’s about 15-20% cheaper, offsetting most if not all the mileage penalty. Conversely, diesel is about $1.00 MORE per gallon, offsetting all, if not more than the mileage gain.

Plus, you're comparing $2.50-$3.00 gallon of regular gas from the closest / most convenient store pump to what... $8 a QUART for the joke that is 'True-fuel'. (talk about a scam!) The only way to win there, would be to by the 'true fuel', use it, fill the empty can with regular two stroke mix and re-sell it. Hummmm...

Personally I rate ethanol as just another great Ponzi scheme foisted on the public - ranks right up there with SS, carbon credits and of course the very latest ACA. Ok got my flack jacket on , and my helmet and I am in my 4 ft thick walled bunker. Have at it.

Believe what you want, it’s of no matter to me. If you enjoy spending 100’s of billions if not trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives on foreign wars to keep mid-east oil fields and tanker shipping lanes open, then great. [gosh, we could almost call that a trillion dollar “gasoline subsidy”… makes the few cents per bushel paid back to fellow Americans almost inconsequential, doesn’t it?] But repeating the same tired old rhetoric from 30+ years ago just doesn’t make much sense.

 

[WiscWoody]

Every gas station here in Wisconsin sells non ethanol gas thankfully! I don't mind using the 10% ethanol blend in my car since the gas does not sit long but I'd rather use pure gas all time in it. As for my small engines, the ATV, the mower or what have you I use non ethanol gas. It makes me feel better not gumming up the carberaters I guess.

 

[Mag Craft]

Ethanol can cause the diaphragms and fuel lines in chainsaws to become stiff and brittle. Only 2 cycle engines have carburetors (like what is being used on chainsaws), that use diaphragms to pump the fuel and to meter the fuel. When they get stiff the carburetor stops working. The material these diaphragms are made from were never meant to be used with ethanol and they have not found a suitable replacement yet. Lawn mowers do not have this problem because there are no diaphragms in those carburetors.

 

[nealj]

Corey thank you for the links to the facts about ethanol. I remember when unleaded gas came on the seen there was the same hype about all the older engines were going to end in a steaming heap. Oil co. took care of that with making leaded gas higher priced than unleaded, soon leaded gas was gone. If some feel they can afford 8$ per quart gas or the extra dollar per gallon for the none ethanol more power to them. I will keep on using E-10 in everything and spend the money I'm saving on a few extra christmas presents for the kids.

 

[TreePointer]

ADM lobby is strong, indeed.

 

[Mag Craft]

I will take the money I save from unnecessary repairs on my small 2 stroke equipment and buy myself another Chainsaw for my firewood processing.

 

[D8Chumley]

One of the guys that's working on my crew now lives very close to the non ethanol station I tried to get gas at over the summer, but the place was closed on Sunday afternoon. I'm going to give him $20 and my 5 gallon can for some of that premium, and mix up a batch for the saws here very soon. I'm excited! I'll probably dump a few gallons in the quad too since I'll need it soon to plow the driveway

 

[AK13]

There's a few places that have pure gas in NH, may not be close to you though:
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=NH

Luckily we can get 93 octane pure gas about 3 miles away. It was $3.50/gal. about a month ago.

Thanks for the link. Its mostly high octane fuel that appears to be available ethanol free. Isn't high-octane gas bad for small engines also? I thought that I had been told not to run anything higher than 89 in my 2-stroke engines. Can't remember why anymore.

 

[Mag Craft]

Thanks for the link. Its mostly high octane fuel that appears to be available ethanol free. Isn't high-octane gas bad for small engines also? I thought that I had been told not to run anything higher than 89 in my 2-stroke engines. Can't remember why anymore.

Small 2 stroke engines run a higher compression ratio then small 4 stroke engines. The higher octane fuel is actually better for the 2 stroke engine. I believe non ethanol high octane fuel at the pump is around 91. Canned fuel for 2 strokes non ethanol is around 94 octane. E-85, I would not run that crap in anything.