Ethanol from corn...What they're not telling you.

[webbie]

What is needed is rationalization of Government policy in the form of taxes, subsidies, and tariffs to reflect current market realities. Reduce taxes, subsidies, and tariffs that introduce political bias and interfere with free market allocation of these resources and you will see some immediate changes relative to ethanol, biodiesel, sugar, corn syrup, and food costs that I suspect would yield better outcomes over the long run. Incentivize energy effeciency through tax credits for renewable energy technology, energy efficient technology in homes and transportation, and R&D at levels that deliver shorter return on investment timeframes for individuals and businesses and loose free market forces to change energy markets. Aggressive unapologetic domestic energy development is also needed to increase supply suffcient to sustain economic growth and market evolution toward new energy sources.

Long live free people and free markets. Long live the profit motive.

I agree with most of those actual points. But just so we don't fool ourselves, they have nothing at all to do with free people or free markets. They are an attempt to wean us from a fuel base which appears to be slowly running out and which the supply of could be unstable. They are an attempt to grow domestic industry (although the tax credits apply to Chinese made solar also). They are an attempt to highly REGULATE markets, which is the opposite of FREE.

I'm not arguing for free markets since I think there is no such thing. I agree with AG that we have to do a number of radical things....and that some will be right, and some will be wrong. BUT, as with any decent business decision, if we have a high % of knowing something is wrong before we start up that road, shift the money around to the right places.

"Free market allocation" was what is known as the gilded age in this country. It was also known as the age of the Golden Rule, that being "He with the most Gold - Rules".

The enclosed pic shows what people do with their "free allocation"....of course, this house was only used 2 1/2 months out of the year. The family had many others.

 

[DaveR]

Food prices do not necessarily seem directly affected by corn prices.

Really?

http://enterprise.southofboston.com/articles/2007/05/26/news/news/news03.txt

Food prices have increased 6.7 percent since Jan. 1, more than three times the 2.1 percent of all of 2006, according to figures released by the U.S. Department of Labor.

Nothing to do with the fact that they are making fuel from corn right?

The biggest increases are being seen in beef and poultry and fresh produce, according to Brian Todd Brian Todd of The Food Institute, a New Jersey-based food information network. And, the cost of eggs is expected to be 16 percent higher than a year ago.

Again, it cant be that silly fuel issue right?

He attributed the recent surge in prices to the high cost of feed for livestock


“Nationally, food prices are forecast to increase 3 to 4 percent,” Todd said. “Four percent is the highest since 1990.”

Here is my favorite nugget from the story, sounds like some of our posters

Even with the rising prices, Todd said grocery stores report steady sales.

DUH, grocery stores and funeral homes. Business is always steady.

Just another perspective on how the sustained rise in energy costs are increasingly affecting food costs and the economy. The link below will take you to a couple of recent studies focused on the details of rising food costs for an alternate perspective to that offered by popular media. Americans could have immediate and dramatic impact on energy costs in the transportation sector by trading in trucks and SUVs for smaller economy cars with dramatically higher fuel efficiency. Government tax credits to consumers for the purchase of automobiles offering 35+ MPG to encourage this market shift would accelerate existing market trends. This in turn would help to reduce the inflationary pressure of rising energy costs on food and other goods and services. Life is about personal responsibility and individual choices to optimize personal wealth. Don't expect government to be better at making these choices than individual American families adjusting priorities and spending to meet new market realities.

http://www.ncga.com/news/notd/2007/june/061507a.asp

“Energy costs have a much greater impact on consumer food costs as they impact every single food product on the shelf,” he said. “Energy is required to produce, package and ship each food item. Conversely, corn prices impact just a small segment of the food market as not all products rely on corn for production. While it may be more sensational to lay the blame for rising food costs on corn prices, the facts don’t support that conclusion. By a factor of two-to-one, energy is the chief factor determining what American families pay at the grocery store.”

Take a look at the study and at least consider its implications.

 

[begreen]

Government tax credits to consumers for the purchase of automobiles offering 35+ MPG to encourage this market shift would accelerate existing market trends. This in turn would help to reduce the inflationary pressure of rising energy costs on food and other goods and services. Life is about personal responsibility and individual choices to optimize personal wealth. Don't expect government to be better at making these choices than individual American families adjusting priorities and spending to meet new market realities.

And don't expect this government to really help out. What they giveth with one hand, they will take away with another. The AMT tax assures that.

 

[Sandor]

Government tax credits to consumers for the purchase of automobiles offering 35+ MPG to encourage this market shift would accelerate existing market trends. This in turn would help to reduce the inflationary pressure of rising energy costs on food and other goods and services. Life is about personal responsibility and individual choices to optimize personal wealth. Don't expect government to be better at making these choices than individual American families adjusting priorities and spending to meet new market realities.

And don't expect this government to really help out. What they giveth with one hand, they will take away with another. The AMT tax assures that.

Yep. The Govt is what, 9 Trillion in debt with no end in sight. Check out the entitlement programs. Any time a govt can speed up the printing press to pay the bills, inflation is inevitable.

Anyone counting on the Fed's in the future may want to rethink their position and strategy.

The cost of Gasoline (or oil) is NOT increasing! The USD is becoming more worthless on the global market. Think about this carefully!

 

[jjbaer]

Government tax credits to consumers for the purchase of automobiles offering 35+ MPG to encourage this market shift would accelerate existing market trends. This in turn would help to reduce the inflationary pressure of rising energy costs on food and other goods and services. Life is about personal responsibility and individual choices to optimize personal wealth. Don't expect government to be better at making these choices than individual American families adjusting priorities and spending to meet new market realities.

And don't expect this government to really help out. What they giveth with one hand, they will take away with another. The AMT tax assures that.

Yep. The Govt is what, 9 Trillion in debt with no end in sight. Check out the entitlement programs. Any time a govt can speed up the printing press to pay the bills, inflation is inevitable.

Anyone counting on the Fed's in the future may want to rethink their position and strategy.

The cost of Gasoline (or oil) is NOT increasing! The USD is becoming more worthless on the global market. Think about this carefully!

I think that regardless of if we're Dem or Rep, we've all seen first hand how corrupt our Government is.....and this comes to you from a retired Air Force Officer......ok....g-men....come make me a visit and we'll "discuss" it......."make my day"........anyway, they're all corrupt and both parties have been spending us into bankruptcy for 20 years or more. The only way around this (and it will never happen...see above about our corrupt gov) is for us to have a constitutional amendment to deny deficit spending..........even in time of war...that would mean that the bastards would have to "save money" in a piggy bank to finance wars.......LOL....

Now for the bad news...you say we're 9 trillion or so in debt........how about several times that amount........the Gov accounting standards are corrupt (hey...who'd a thunk it.... a corrupt Gov using corrupt accounting standards) by comparison to those accounting standards that our same corrupt Gov imposes on businesses......put another way, if those same business accounting practices/standards were applied to the Gov, we're about 20 trillion or so in the hole........so.....at what point do we (as the founding fathers envisioned might happen) finally say our government has turned against us?

Oh...and to push those "over the edge" who can't quite force themselves to say our Government has "turned against us", well, just remember that this same corrupt Government now wants to let 100 million illegal invaders become citizens........."where oh where have honorable men and women gone in our time of need".........."?

 

[Sandor]

Cast, this is an Ethanol thread, so I'll reply and let it go.

The reason why the govt wants to legalize these aliens is so they pay Federal taxes. There is no Federal sales tax so they are basically not contributing.

The issue is larger than that. Capitalism cannot work without growth. If you legalize these people, so they can get mortgages, pay Federal taxes, and consume legally, then... Poof! you have growth. Population growth from those that are here is basically flat.

So, this raises more questions. If Capitalism cannot function without growth (and it cannot), where does this all end? Well... not nicely.

Exponential growth cannot continue in a finite world.

 

[BrotherBart]

So, this raises more questions. If Capitalism cannot function without growth (and it cannot),...

I believe it can, but I will be dead before 1.) I get that damned book written and 2.) The 150 - 200 years it will take to cleanse the corporate and governmental gene pool passes.

The interim ain't gonna be pretty. At least Rome had the baths and the troughs.

 

[webbie]

I see a "local" future, at least in areas of the country like ours where there is a lot of stuff available (the desert is another story).
If people start working, recreating and shopping close to home - and saving energy in the process, then energy use and perhaps GDP could level out or even drop and things might be OK.

As to that capitalism, there are still plenty of other people and countries in the world that need stuff, so companies can go there for growth.

 

[begreen]

Exponential growth cannot continue in a finite world.

Amen, like a snake eating its tail.

However, if we shift the model so that ever more efficient technologies have high value, then maybe, just maybe, there's a chance. But not before there is a general sense of global corporate citizenship.

 

[jjbaer]

Cast, this is an Ethanol thread, so I'll reply and let it go.

The reason why the govt wants to legalize these aliens is so they pay Federal taxes. There is no Federal sales tax so they are basically not contributing.

The issue is larger than that. Capitalism cannot work without growth. If you legalize these people, so they can get mortgages, pay Federal taxes, and consume legally, then... Poof! you have growth. Population growth from those that are here is basically flat.

So, this raises more questions. If Capitalism cannot function without growth (and it cannot), where does this all end? Well... not nicely.

Exponential growth cannot continue in a finite world.

No...the "issue is NOT larger than that", rather, it IS the issue...........illegals put a huge strain on our economy and making them citizens will simply allow millions of them to get welfare and social security for their children, something they can't get now...........and that means HUGE TAX INCREASES....I don't give a s*&t about capitalism if legalizing them means my frickin taxes go through the roof when they become citizens.......you smoking dope Sandor or what part of that don't you understand???????

Another "fine point" that you miss is this: once they become citizens, employers CANNOT continue to low-ball them with low wages and no benefits.....so..........that means wages rise a lot in these jobs and some jobs like agriculture where they cannot rise that much means these once migrant workers (now citizens) will no longer work for those low wages because, guess what....they're US citizens and can get legal jobs at much higher wages and with benefits.....so....what does that leave us with? Answer: millions of jobs that Mexicans once held that they will no longer work in because now even the Mexicans won't work for those low wages.......and what does this culminate in: a HUGE INFLUX of additional illegals to fill these jobs that newly made Mexican citizens will no longer take. Then we have MILLIONS more pour across our borders, and the same traitorous Congress that in 1986 swore after legalizing 4 million said they'd "seal the borders" will again turn a blind eye to these new millions that will pour over and in 2020 they'll want to legalize another 50 million more.....say good bye to your friggin country...........

 

[begreen]

Calm down the rhetoric a bit cast. No need for personal attacks.

The presumption that these people are going on welfare as soon as they become citizens is nonsense and sounds like a racial stereotype. The Mexicans I have seen in the construction trade are typically very hard workers and have a lot of pride in what they do. They will become tax-paying citizens, not welfare clients. I've been on a lot of job sites and it's the lazy Americans that worry me, not the hispanics. As to wages, that is also nonsense. Agriculture is big in Washington. Migrant workers get paid by the harvest, not by the hour. If they work hard, they get paid well. The farmers want them to come back year after year. Good farmers don't treat their workers poorly or pay slave wages. Same thing that I have observed with roofers, landscapers etc. If you have a good worker, you pay him well enough not to lose him. Otherwise you've wasted a lot of training.

As far as taking "American" jobs, that is also not so - show me the hoards of American workers showing up in the fields and jobsites that are being turned away. Ain't so. Truth is it's hard to find people that will work hard, day after day, at crap jobs that most kids don't want. What the country needs is more jobs in manufacturing of something other than weapons. Mobilize this country towards rebuilding it's infrastructure and pioneering in alternative energy research and products and this will be a non-issue. Of course that would take vision and leadership, something sorely lacking today.

 

[jjbaer]

Calm down the rhetoric a bit cast. No need for personal attacks.

The presumption that these people are going on welfare as soon as they become citizens is nonsense and sounds like a racial stereotype. They will become tax-paying citizens, not welfare clients.
.

BeGreen,

you're delusional..........you ignore FACTS while spouting bulls^%t.......


FACT: 12-20 million are here illegally...meaning they don't belong here and need to go home. This isn't racist, but rather it's a FACT...one you ignore....
FACT: the presence of 20 million illegals here has ALREADY cost us about $20,000 per illegal in the form of unfunded mandates to pay for schooling, hospitals, etc........again, this isn't racist, but rather, a FACT, one that you (again) ignore.....
FACT: when they become citizens, they'll cease doing many of the jobs they previously did and a new wave of illegals will again invade our country to fill the vacuum of the jobs they no longer will do......and it will be "ground hog day" over and over and over again.......again, this is not racist however, as with the above, you chose to ignore the obvious....


What's "racist" however, is the way you "search for the guilty (illegal invaders) and punish the innocent (people like me who point this out and want them evicted and to have them sent back to Mexico and legally wait in line for entry)"........you however, stand logic on its head and dare call me a racist...........boy do you have a warped sense of right and wrong...............

 

[Sandor]

BeGreen - your delusional and I must be a pothead.

Cast's elegant and lucid writing style suggests he has an advanced degree in Economics. At least he knows how to use ad hominem attacks and Straw Man arguments to get his point across.

The ethanol thread has turned to an immigration thread.

 

[begreen]

Cast, never called you a racist, just that the argument had racial overtones. Most all of us are immigrants here, so get off the labeling.

Sandor, yep I guess I've gone off the deep end. Oh well.

This thread has been hijacked, polluted, polarized and is now way off topic. Closing it down.