F600Cat rebuild

[begreen]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

 

[summit]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

Jotuls today are a little touchy to get started (gotta leave the door cracked for a while) and actually can shut down pretty hard.... High firebox temps (just like a Cat) are key to achieve before you shut it down for that 8+ hr burn.
dznam's issue when he contaced me initially was that the F600 cat on one end of the house easilly achieved an overnight run, no probs... but the oslo on the other end whipped thru the same firewood like nobody's business. Given his taller chims, and overall draft, I came to conclusion that the Cat stove was actually working better in his setup because it forces the smoke to make a downwards and restricted flow thru the stove, the cat and cat chamber (rather than the up, around the baffle and out of the oslo) helping to counteract his strong draft and give him the desired burns he was aiming for. We happened to get a F600 cat in just before he called, and the rest is history.

 

[Todd]

Great job Summit, that's one fine looking stove.

 

[grommal]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

Jotuls today are a little touchy to get started (gotta leave the door cracked for a while) and actually can shut down pretty hard.... High firebox temps (just like a Cat) are key to achieve before you shut it down for that 8+ hr burn.
dznam's issue when he contaced me initially was that the F600 cat on one end of the house easilly achieved an overnight run, no probs... but the oslo on the other end whipped thru the same firewood like nobody's business. Given his taller chims, and overall draft, I came to conclusion that the Cat stove was actually working better in his setup because it forces the smoke to make a downwards and restricted flow thru the stove, the cat and cat chamber (rather than the up, around the baffle and out of the oslo) helping to counteract his strong draft and give him the desired burns he was aiming for. We happened to get a F600 cat in just before he called, and the rest is history.

That's too much of a generalization. My new Oslo does not need to have the door left open at all on startup with dry wood. I can light the newspaper or SuperCedar and close the door immediately, and get a roaring fire in no time. If the wood is dry, and I'm not trying to run the stove full out, shutting the air all the way down works great, and does not smoulder it at all. So, perhaps it depends on the particular installation, and perhaps it depends on the particular stove, but I have not seen the same behavior you describe with a new Jotul.

 

[begreen]

Indeed. The issue most likely is a combo of the flue and the wood. Also influencing the draft is whether it's rear or top exit connected. Our rear-exit Castine required the door to be ajar for about 5 minutes starting the fire unless I was using a SuperCedar.

FWIW, I start with the door ajar with the T6. But in the Alderlea I am starting full size splits with some kindling in the tunnel of love between the splits.

 

[summit]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

Jotuls today are a little touchy to get started (gotta leave the door cracked for a while) and actually can shut down pretty hard.... High firebox temps (just like a Cat) are key to achieve before you shut it down for that 8+ hr burn.
dznam's issue when he contaced me initially was that the F600 cat on one end of the house easilly achieved an overnight run, no probs... but the oslo on the other end whipped thru the same firewood like nobody's business. Given his taller chims, and overall draft, I came to conclusion that the Cat stove was actually working better in his setup because it forces the smoke to make a downwards and restricted flow thru the stove, the cat and cat chamber (rather than the up, around the baffle and out of the oslo) helping to counteract his strong draft and give him the desired burns he was aiming for. We happened to get a F600 cat in just before he called, and the rest is history.

That's too much of a generalization. My new Oslo does not need to have the door left open at all on startup with dry wood. I can light the newspaper or SuperCedar and close the door immediately, and get a roaring fire in no time. If the wood is dry, and I'm not trying to run the stove full out, shutting the air all the way down works great, and does not smoulder it at all. So, perhaps it depends on the particular installation, and perhaps it depends on the particular stove, but I have not seen the same behavior you describe with a new Jotul.

Yes, i should clarify that it is not always the case, but in my experience the majority have a slower startup time. For ex: my old F600 non cat would require a cracked door for @ 10 minutes, and full throttle on the air for @ 20 more after the door was closed to get her going. The PE I currently own gets started fine w/ the door shut, air wide open for only @ 10 mins = @ 500 stack temp. Jotuls we have run at the shop have acted the same way (w/ the exception of the #3cb and the 118 - but those have 2 sets of air controls which negate the need for cracking a door.)... In fact, the #1 issue I run into w/ Jotuls are warped ash grates and cracked bases; this is because people make a habit of using the ashpan door to get the fire going faster, not because of a mfg defect, just operator error. This is not to say the Jotul is a bad stove in any way, they just take a while to get heated up. Lately, whenever we do a F400 Castine install, I make a point to leave the EUR air inlet w/ the customer, because it's larger air opening often resolves a sluggish performance should they encounter it.

 

[semipro]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

We did burn some less than optimally-dry wood in the Jotul last season so that may explain part of the creosote. However, we burned the same quality of wood in the Firelight without the same creosote buildup. Maybe that's an attribute of the catalytic system; the ability to burn wetter wood cleanly. Its interesting that our Oslo uses a 6" dia. insulated stainless steel flue about 25' long and most of the creosote buildup is at the very top, apparently where the temps drop to the point where creosote can form.

Its interesting also that the Firelight works well in a 35' x 12" square ceramic flue which is theoretically way too big for proper drafting. After years of operation I went to clean this flue and could still see the red ceramic color of the tile as far down the flue as I could see.

We've also found that extra air is needed when starting our Jotuls. I use the side door on the Oslo to avoid the grate warping issue that others have reported.

 

[begreen]

It sounds like the flue gas temps were hotter with the Firelight, but perhaps this could be a difference in cold air exposure for the different flues? I think you will see the Oslo performing much better with well seasoned wood and a 500 °F stove top.

Still it's good to know that the Firelight cat is doing well for you. With the new EPA regs coming down the road, maybe it will get reintroduced?

 

[mariacw]

Hi Pyro

In your first set of pictures, the picture with all the F-600's parts on the floor, is the stove on the left in the back ground an Enviro-Fire Mini?

 

[summit]

Hi Pyro

In your first set of pictures, the picture with all the F-600's parts on the floor, is the stove on the left in the back ground an Enviro-Fire Mini?

actually, it's summit, not pyro (thats my obscene amount of posts).. but to answer the question, its a Vista Flame VF170, very powerful stove: kinda looks like the mini, but way bigger with a 130lb hopper and 70k btu output. It's what we use to heat the warehouse. It does a very nice job, btw.. It is made by sherwood industries, and is a sister company to enviro. In fact, the two make all the same models, just under a different name and slightly differing outside appearance. The 170 is basically the same as the enviro maxx, just slighty different body panels. Like a GM/Chevy/Buick.

 

[summit]

Are you sure the creosote build up is because of the stove? The Oslo is a very clean burner if it has dry wood and is burned hot enough. Seems like there may be other factors involved.

We did burn some less than optimally-dry wood in the Jotul last season so that may explain part of the creosote. However, we burned the same quality of wood in the Firelight without the same creosote buildup. Maybe that's an attribute of the catalytic system; the ability to burn wetter wood cleanly. Its interesting that our Oslo uses a 6" dia. insulated stainless steel flue about 25' long and most of the creosote buildup is at the very top, apparently where the temps drop to the point where creosote can form.

Its interesting also that the Firelight works well in a 35' x 12" square ceramic flue which is theoretically way too big for proper drafting. After years of operation I went to clean this flue and could still see the red ceramic color of the tile as far down the flue as I could see.

We've also found that extra air is needed when starting our Jotuls. I use the side door on the Oslo to avoid the grate warping issue that others have reported.

thats the issue you got going: do you have a cap on the ss flue, but not the masonry flue? if so, it collects at the top probably because of the cap you have at the top of a 6" stainless flue. the spark guards they have in place on many catch a lot of fly... While the chim on my PE always stays clean (nothing but dust), I whack the cap a couple times a season to knock the fly off it.

 

[summit]

Great job Summit, that's one fine looking stove.

thanks!