Finnish Fireplace

[Simonkenton]

Has anybody ever had a Finnish Fireplace? This is the best wood stove in the world. It is a massive masonry wood stove, invented in Finland following WW2.
The Finns did a great deal of research at their Technical Institute and learned that the hottest wood fire is gained from a high firebox, I don't recall the exact specs but the firebox in the Finnish Fireplace is about 4 feet high. A firebox this high generates the hottest heat.

With a 5 to 7 ton fireplace, set entirely within the house, like a cast iron wood stove would be, the massive amount of masonry absorbs the heat of the fire, and then radiates out the heat all day.
Even on a cold day, say a low of about 10 degrees, the Finnish Fireplace is burned only for about a half an hour in the morning, and then again for a half hour at night.
On a really cold night in Finland, the Finnish Fireplace is burned 3 times a day. The 1700 degree fire turns an armload of firewood into a small amount of ash.

I am in the North Carolina Mountains and I wanted to install a Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace in my log cabin. Alas, I learned that it is not cold enough here to efficiently use a Finnish Fireplace.

Here is a pic of a Tulikivi Finnish Fireplace:

 

[BrotherBart]

Lots of discussions every year about masonry heaters, it ain't just a Fin thing. Used to be two members with those monsters with their housed built around them. There are also online forums devoted to them.

 

[begreen]

I like Tulikivis. They work fine in our climate as do Russian fireplaces.

 

[Grisu]

Love them. If I will ever build my own home, it will be highly insulated with a masonry heater inside. Now I just need to win the lottery...

 

[DougA]

Yup, I was convinced that's what I saw going to buy ... until I found out they start at $30K. I was then going to make it myself until I found out that if it's not made by an expert, there's no chance of it passing inspection here in Ont.. Euchred.

 

[Simonkenton]

To be honest, you could, marginally, use a Finnish Fireplace here in the NC mountains. I love them because they are so efficient.
But, the fiancee hates them! She says they look like an oven from Auschwitz. Women, go figure.
Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

I had a Tulikivi all picked out for our new house, but no go. Had to settle for a fireplace and a Waterford cast iron wood stove.

 

[begreen]

Yup, I was convinced that's what I saw going to buy ... until I found out they start at $30K. I was then going to make it myself until I found out that if it's not made by an expert, there's no chance of it passing inspection here in Ont.. Euchred.

Take a look at Temp-Cast kits for masonry stove building.

 

[Simonkenton]

The Tulikivi I was looking at 15 years ago cost $8K. Have they quadrupled in price? That is hard to believe, they are made of high temp fire brick and rocks or soapstone.

 

[DougA]

I did talk to them already. I can't recall exactly but I think they were just short of $10K for a smallish inner unit. When I spoke to them, there were no examples I could go to see and I got the impression what they were doing is simply buying refractory bricks, adding their plans and selling it at a premium. I asked to visit them since they are quite close to me and they 'were in the process of moving' and did not have a 'bricks and mortar' building. Can't recall the exact details but I was not impressed. If you look at their web site, the last testimonial is from someone who bought their unit in 2002.

Then, you have to cover it with your own exterior stone or brick. Still, I spoke to many WETT inspectors plus had a long acrimonious conversation with the people at WETT and they would certify it because it has no certification tag on it. The certified mason has to build it, hence the high cost. There are at least 4 near me and they all are in the price range I quoted. It's a LOT of work.

I also had a long discussion with one of the top builders in N. America and had these concerns:
I wanted it to be built on an outside wall. This is a huge no-no. It MUST be in the center of the room
The BTU output is not enormous. It compares with a mid-sized stove. I need 100K BTU or more.
Heat output is very slow and over many hours. If you are away for a day, you'll have to use back-up heat for many hours until the unit warms enough to be useful.

I still think the idea is fantastic but just not right for many people.

 

[DougA]

The Tulikivi I was looking at 15 years ago cost $8K. Have they quadrupled in price? That is hard to believe, they are made of high temp fire brick and rocks or soapstone.

I spoke to one very knowledgeable guy who wanted over $10K just to build the inner shell. I just re-checked the price of someone nearby and they are quoting $15 to $30K. You have to remember that many units are quite small. I saw one in Italy that was built to heat a small living room and not the house. I'm wanting something that is much larger, hence the $30K.

BTW, have you priced soapstone lately?? See the prices for a Hearthstone and that will give you an idea of the cost.

 

[branchburner]

BTW, have you priced soapstone lately??

No need to use soapstone for a masonry heater.

The way to go, if not a lottery winner (or otherwise wealthy) is to get a mason who builds heaters to build one, of stone or brick (BTW, seems to be LOTS of those guys in Ontario, including the guy linked below).

Getting it to pass code is another matter.

Rocket mass heater would work for me:
http://www.mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/wildac12g.htm
Built by:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/gallery.html

 

[Simonkenton]

Well, looks like things have changed for the worse for Tulikivi in 15 years. Back then, the smallest models were $6K and the expensive ones were $15K. As I recall, they sold you the entire kit, soapstone, refractory brick and all, and you put it together.

My house is 1,200 sq ft and the Tulikivi I had picked out cost $8K.
I don't recall the BTU output, but, 15 years ago 10 percent of the new houses in Finland used Finnish Firplaces exclusively for heat. Of course, at least in Finland, there are many other manufacturers besides Tulikivi.
Good enough for Finland, good enough for me.
Few people and lots of trees in Finland.. For these masterpieces of engineering, it doesn 't matter if you burn oak or pine, because you are only burning the fire for a half hour or so.

 

[DougA]

Built by:
http://www.stovemaster.com/html_en/gallery.html

Spoke to him for quite awhile too. I was very impressed with his knowledge. I'm pretty sure he's in the $30K+ range for the size I wanted. Also have to remember that for an artisan like that, you are paying for 2 masons their travel, accommodations, food, etc for a week to 10 days. It all adds up.

My house is 1,200 sq ft

That's the real issue. Homes in Europoe are vastly different than the giant mansions here in N. America. In my county, the minimum size allowed was 2K sq ft when I built in 1983. I spend many hours researching all the Russian, Finnish and other variations. There are designs now that seem to surpass the Tulikivi.

Bottom line is still this, if I can't get it certified, I can't get house insurance. Without house insurance, I can't get a mortgage. That was the end of the searching. I was very disappointed and frustrated that it ended that way. I'm sure there are some areas that are not as strict as Ont.

 

[Simonkenton]

Yes, y'all up north, and in Canada, have much more strict wood stove regs than what we have here down South.
I had a house down in Georgia, had a mortgage on it, and had a VC wood stove. The stove was never inspected, the insurance company knew I had a stove, nobody ever said anything to me about it.
I now have a home here in North Carolina, do not have a mortgage but Prudential has never said a word to me about my wood stove, and it has not been inspected.

 

[weatherguy]

There are a couple of masons near me that build masonary heaters, one guy has some smaller ones pre built. I met someone that bought one but it ended up being way to small for his 2000 sf house, he still has it but burns a pellet stove. I've been appraising houses for 25 years and have seen 1 Tulikivi in all that time. It was in a 1600 sf newer home and was just beautiful.

 

[7acres]

Yes, y'all up north, and in Canada, have much more strict wood stove regs than what we have here down South.
I had a house down in Georgia, had a mortgage on it, and had a VC wood stove. The stove was never inspected, the insurance company knew I had a stove, nobody ever said anything to me about it.
I now have a home here in North Carolina, do not have a mortgage but Prudential has never said a word to me about my wood stove, and it has not been inspected.

Same here in SC. Called the local building inspector to inquire if I could install it myself (I'm not a pro installer) and if it had to be inspected after installation. He said I can install it and no inspection is needed. Same with insurance company. The wood stove proposition would have been a couple grand more expensive if our state had onerous regulations. So I'm happy I live in SC.

 

[begreen]

I would think that many insurance companies would view this as a fireplace. Usually if it is installed by a licensed and bonded mason and inspected that is sufficient. But not all insurance companies are alike. Some still go by pre-EPA stove requirements which is nuts.

 

[firefighterjake]

I know a guy who has one here in Maine . . . loves it . . . bought the "guts" and installed it . . . then did the exterior stone work himself. He loads it up twice a day and as mentioned loves it . . . said the only drawback is early and late in the season.

 

[spirilis]

I read a neat book on the history of these and of mankind's use of fire in general.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1890132098/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
"The Book of Masonry Stoves: Rediscovering an Old Way of Warming"
I think it was written in 1984. Anyway a lot of European development into masonry heaters occurred at a fast pace between the late-1500's and 1800's during what is often coined the "Little Ice Age". Obviously they existed well before then especially in places like Russia, but one common theme I noticed is those older designs weren't necessarily "efficient" combusters per se. E.g. underfloor heating in China, Korea et al. tended to use smoky fires.

Another common name is "Tile stove", the closest thing they had to prefab or cookie-cutter masonry heaters back then. Even still a skilled mason in the trade would be the one to construct it.

 

[spirilis]

Also mentioned in that book is the practice of Coppicing and Pollarding, something that fell out of favor in the 20th century but has attracted much attention among permies and greenies I guess.

As Europe became more densely populated with more folks moving into the cities, firewood and lumber supply became a huge issue since it was everyone's primary fuel (a London glassmaker could use up to 70 cords a month, IIRC). So trees would be thinned outside the city, and folks would have to source wood further and further out at greater cost, and lumber would be imported from far away.

So the practice of coppicing trees by chopping them down to the stump and letting them resprout would inevitably allow substantially higher productivity out of their trees, and allow them to cultivate ideal poles for lumber. Furthermore, the fast & hot burning nature of a masonry heater enables and frankly requires they use smaller splits or sticks- so having a tree go nuts with sprouts would allow abundant harvest of such smaller fuel. Better not to have to split any of your firewood when you need so much of it and you don't have petrol power to help you.

Pollarding is just coppicing at several feet high, to prevent livestock from grazing on the sprouts.

 

[Simonkenton]

At any rate, since the fiancee gave the thumbs down on the Finnish Fireplace, I built a regular American-style fireplace for my house, pictured at left. But, I applied the principles of the Finnish Fireplace. This fireplace is entirely within the house, so that, the back wall of the fireplace is the inside wall of the bathroom.
Upstairs, the stone walls of the chimney are entirely within the bedroom. It looks good!

Also, I built an exterior air intake. A fireplace will suck an enormous amount of heat up the stack if you don't have an exterior air intake.
This is 18 tons of masonry enclosed within the house. If I burn the fireplace for 5 hours, the back wall of the fireplace gets up to about 105. As soon as the coals have gone out, I close the damper, and the heat stored in the massive masonry stack will slowly release, and will heat the entire house on a 32 degree night. In that situation, I will have about 68 degrees in the living room the next day, and in the bedroom upstairs it will be about 64 degrees.
Burn the fireplace 5 hours the next night, and off you go.
Not nearly as efficient as a Finnish Fireplace, but pretty good. It is also not nearly as efficient as my little Waterford wood stove.

 

[DougA]

Most of the masonry heaters now have sealed glass doors so the efficiency is much improved. One of the members here ByQ was going to build one but I have not seen him post for quite some time.

 

[webby3650]

At any rate, since the fiancee gave the thumbs down on the Finnish Fireplace, I built a regular American-style fireplace for my house, pictured at left. But, I applied the principles of the Finnish Fireplace. This fireplace is entirely within the house, so that, the back wall of the fireplace is the inside wall of the bathroom.
Upstairs, the stone walls of the chimney are entirely within the bedroom. It looks good!

Also, I built an exterior air intake. A fireplace will suck an enormous amount of heat up the stack if you don't have an exterior air intake.
This is 18 tons of masonry enclosed within the house. If I burn the fireplace for 5 hours, the back wall of the fireplace gets up to about 105. As soon as the coals have gone out, I close the damper, and the heat stored in the massive masonry stack will slowly release, and will heat the entire house on a 32 degree night. In that situation, I will have about 68 degrees in the living room the next day, and in the bedroom upstairs it will be about 64 degrees.
Burn the fireplace 5 hours the next night, and off you go.
Not nearly as efficient as a Finnish Fireplace, but pretty good. It is also not nearly as efficient as my little Waterford wood stove.

I had the same idea. I burn it hot and then Shut the damper as soon as I can. I lined my entire firebox with 2 1/2" thick soapstone slabs. About 600 pounds of it!

 

[NoGasBill.com]

Hi Simon, yes I have been working with these heaters for the past 25 years. They work great in most settings as a bonus you can cook in them too. Living ''off grid" with masonry heaters is easy and quite rewarding.

 

[DougA]

I had a quick look at your site. Looks nice. The question I didn't see answered was the one I got stuck on a year ago when I contacted other 'kit' suppliers in Ontario. If I buy a kit and install it myself, how do I get it WETT certified? The inspectors I spoke with (many) were unanimous that if it did not have a ULC tag on it they would not pass it. There is no ULC tag - so.... ?