Fireplace vs. insert

[3dogsrule]

Ok, if you've read my hearth thread you know I'd been shooting to get a Hearthstone Homestead and install it into my factory made zero clearance fireplace, and have run into hearth problems. I'm rethinking buying the Homestead at all. My fireplace that we installed when I built my house has been utterly disappointing (hence the desire to purchase a stove/insert); even with a blower on it I've had almost no heat output, with the glass bi-fold doors with their big air gaps it burns through wood like crazy, I just hate it. Whatever I get, because my room is wide and not deep, I can't have something (like a full size stove) that's deep, the Homestead was only going to stick out 15" or so. So, my question: it'd be easier to buy a real 'insert' as opposed to a stove that will partially set inside the fireplace (of which there are few), but I want to be %&*#@ sure that I get some heat. I can read BTU ratings etc all day long, but in the real world, will a fireplace insert really put out some heat if the fireplace it's going into didn't?

Karen

 

[fredarm]

The short answer is, yes it will. Some inserts stick out more than others which will give you somewhat more passive heat, but all inserts put out heat, even without the blower. With the blower, you will get as much heat as you would from a stove. My little Vista insert puts out quite a bit of heat without the blower. We never run the blower more than half speed, and usually just on low. Since you like Hearthstone, what about the Clydesdale insert? According the Hearthstone web site, the Clydesdale can be installed in a ZC fireplace. If you're looking at other inserts be aware that not all can be installed in a ZC fireplace. If the Clydesdale is too big, Hearthstone makes a smaller insert, the Morgan.

 

[greythorn3]

that is the same dilema im thinking, i was told the blaze king princess insert is a good one but i dont know if it will have to go in a masoary fireplace or not.. i have a zero clearance, im about fed up and thinink of tearing the whole thing out and putting a free standing stove in front of it. because i know they work.

Ray

 

[3dogsrule]

Thanks, Fred, comforting to hear. I've threatened my fireplace dealer with his life (I'm not kidding) if whatever I stick in doesn't put out some serious heat. Would hate to go to jail for murdering him, he doesn't mean to mislead me, he just wants to sell SOMEthing and he's not terribly educated on his products. I'm going by there after work to see what inserts he has (there aren't many), he's got a QuadraFire 4100-I that we think will fit, I *think* it'll work in my ZC fireplace.

 

[fredarm]

Check the owner's manual to make sure it can be installed in a ZC fireplace and measure to make sure it will fit. You'll also want a stainless steel liner for the chimney.

 

[daleeper]

I can read BTU ratings etc all day long, but in the real world, will a fireplace insert really put out some heat if the fireplace it's going into didn't?

Karen

You really haven't told us anything about the zc fireplace that is installed, or the space that it is installed in to know what and why it failed. We are assuming the zc fireplace was not an epa listed heater, but we may be wrong. The room could be way too big for any of the inserts you are considering, and be unhappy with them after installing them too, if that room is going to be hard to heat.

If I already had the cavity for a zero clearance fireplace in my room, and wanted to upgrade it, I would be installing an epa listed fireplace in the old ones place, rather than putting an insert in. That way you are not taking up any extra floor space. If your dealer handles quadrafire, look at the 7100, there are other epa listed fireplaces available.

 

[3dogsrule]

I've got a Heatilator A42C fireplace, installed in an exterior chase. The room that it's in is a very open room, approx 24' x 16' and very tall, open two stories. Second floor has a steep pitched roof (12/12) but the peek inside is 19' from the ground floor. What got me about the Heatilator is that, even with a blower, I couldn't feel the heat from a rolling fire unless I was within 3 feet of it, WITH the blower on. It has an outside air kit on it, which seemed to make zero difference; I assumed it was sucking air in around the healthy gaps of the bifold doors. A full stack of wood (mostly seasoned but a stick or two of slightly green) would burn up in just a few hours, and I assumed all my heat was going up the chimney. That's why I was hoping a stove or something that protrudes into the room somewhat would keep the heat IN my house. I'd love to remove the Heatilator and put a whole 'nother something in the hole, but I think labor-wise that would be cost prohibitive. Enough details about my setup to maybe tell if a stove would help or just be another waste of money??

Karen

 

[3dogsrule]

Side note, my whole house is only 1600 sqft, I have a 2 ton heat pump downstairs and a 1.5 ton up. I'm hot natured and have the heat set on 67 right now. So I don't have huge heat/air units yet they are able to control the temps fine, and I'm not trying to get a fire to heat the house to 80!!

Karen

 

[Corners]

Check out the Lennox and Security Chinmey BIS EPA fireplaces. Stove efficiency with a fireplace look and install.

 

[3dogsrule]

Well, I've gotten nowhere since my last post, just getting more and more confused. I can't help but be scared of an insert, I can't convince myself that a good insert in a crappy ZC will work as well as a stove, but again, space is an issue. If I can butt a stove up against my ZC (with a heat shield or non-combustible tiling/concrete board, etc) then I can see where I'd get some good heat off that. Anyway, found another stove dealer in my area (there aren't many!!) that carries Lopi and Jotul and said he can get Kozyheat too; I've been limited thus far to just Quadra Fire, Buck and Hearthstone thus far. This is the place from which my crappy ZC came in the first place, had been hoping to avoid them since I have a trust issue with the SOB who sold me the ZC and swore it'd put out good heat, but I digress..I'll be seeking second opinions from you guys on what they tell me today. Gonna go shop online now for Lopi and Jotul...

Karen

 

[HardWoodW]

sounds like you need to visit a shop that will fire up an insert for you- you'll probably be amazed at the amount of heat they can put out

 

[3dogsrule]

I hear ya, know that inserts can run you out of the house. I live in a rural area and most everybody has some type of indoor fire appliance, lots have inserts. Just not sure it'd work in my house, either my room is too tall/big, or there's something fundamentally wrong with my ZC/chimney/etc, or I've got hot natured ghosts.

The more I look at my ZC, I can't believe there'll be a ZC approved insert out there big enough (heat producing enough) to suit me, my ZC is apparently pretty small compared to the specs most decent sized inserts call for. If money weren't such an issue I'd rip out the ZC and start from scratch. I might just have to put this dream off for yet another year until I can raise funds to do it all "right".

This is all gonna drive me to drinking [more]...

Karen

 

[Pagey]

If the room is 384 sq. ft., I'm kind of at a loss on how a free standing stove having enough room is an issue. Our Lopi Endeavor is in a smaller room, and with its very tight clearances, space is not really an issue at all for us.

 

[Corey]

If you go with an insert, be sure to get a good, quiet blower. Because inserts set deep in the fireplace and usually have a double skin, they don't 'throw' radiant heat like a true wood stove. But if you plan to move heat to other areas of the house, you will want airflow anyway - the 'radiant' heat is only good for line-of-sight heating. Wouldn't hurt to try out the blower in the showroom if that's an option. Some factory blowers are noisy (either the fan itself or squeaks, rattles from the mounting) and/or have low air flow. Many people on the forums have replaced them with quieter / higher flow units. As a ballpark figure, I'd estimate 300+ CFM to really be effective.

 

[3dogsrule]

If the room is 384 sq. ft., I'm kind of at a loss on how a free standing stove having enough room is an issue. Our Lopi Endeavor is in a smaller room, and with its very tight clearances, space is not really an issue at all for us.

You'd have to see my house to understand, while it's a big room, there's a lot going on in there (dining, den, traffic). The existing fireplace is in the half of the room that acts as the living room, and the wall it's on is long but there's not enough depth between it and the furniture to have something big. Long story and hard to explain, just trust me when I say that I need as little protruding into the room as necessary. Also, had a really nice piece of granite I really wanted to use for my hearth and it's only 15 inches deep (hearth will be tall and I'll have floor protection further out as necessary) so would be wonderful if stove could set within that 15". All is is why I originally started with the Hearthstone Homestead, a few inches sticking into the ZC and then the rest on my granite, being outside the wall enough to feel good heat but not being too consuming of floorspace. But it's been downhill from there...

 

[CJRages]

If you're still considering using a wood burning insert, I found the installation manual for your Heatilator A42C.
http://www.heatilator.com/downloads/installManuals/28396.pdf

Very interesting reading if you run a word search for "insert".

Page 2: "DO NOT USE A FIREPLACE INSERT OR OTHER PRODUCTS NOT SPECIFIED FOR USE WITH THIS PRODUCT."
That is standard verbage I've run into looking at Majestic fireplace manuals. Sounds cut and dried right? maybe...

Page 5: Warranty Exclusions - essentially your Heatilator warranty doesn't cover - "Any part of a pre-existing fireplace system in which an insert or a decorative gas appliance is installed."

Sounds pretty uninspiring doesn't it? :roll:


But wait it's not over yet... see page page 41. Is there hope...?

Under Accessories, B: Wood Burning Inserts:

Warning! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts
may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.
If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,
Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline of
the chimney.
• Cooling air openings at the top of the chimney must not
be obstructed in any manner.
• Hearth & Home Technologies recommends securing the
reline at the top of the flue and using the cap certified for
use with this fireplace system.


"If a wood burning insert is being installed" - I didn't think that was OK on page 2, but now the manual is openly admitting it MAY be OK.

It all seems so clear now. lol. Let's see what some experts say on all of this.

 

[3dogsrule]

ARRGGHH!!

I'm heading out shortly to visit with the original supplier of the Heatilator (which they don't even mention carrying anymore), I'm really hoping they'll step up and help me figure all this crap out since their product got me into this boat...

Karen

 

[Wet1]

Karen,

Living in Arkansas, you don't need a lot of fire power. If you lived in ME, I'd say you're wasting your time and just rip it out and start from scratch, but your climate is pretty mild so you don't need a lot of output.

An insert will put out way more heat than your existing ZC FP will. A stove will put out more than an insert (all things being equal), but I have a hard time believing an insert wont heat your <400 sq ft room with gusto. I don't know anything about your ZC FP, and I'm feeling too lazy right now to see what would fit in it, but rest well knowing an insert will give you the heat you need in your climate. The unknown is the size of the insert. Even a small insert can crank out a lot of heat, the problem will become burn times. The smaller the insert/firebox, the shorter your burn times will be at any given btu/hr output. For this reason you'll probably want to go with the largest insert you can fit in there.

Also, if your FP is that small, you might have a hard time finding a free standing stove that can be vented into it.

EDIT: The verbage from the manual quoted above doesn't sound good!

 

[Pagey]

I think it's pretty much like was said in the other thread going right now: no ZC manufacturer wants to assume the liability incurred when someone installs a wood burning insert into one of their ZC fireplaces. Therefore, they won't say their ZC fireplace is insert approved. That way if you do put one in and burn down the house, you can't go back on the ZC manufacturer. However, there do appear to be ZC approved inserts out there from a variety of makers. Now, I'm assuming they've tested their product and deem them safe, otherwise why would they essentially transfer the liability from the ZC maker onto themselves?

 

[3dogsrule]

Now, while my one room isn't that big, it is open two stories and there's a bedroom upstairs off the open area, and then downstairs there's a kitchen attached to the big room, and a bedroom and bathroom around the corner of the big room, and plenty of ceiling fans everywhere to move air around, so I'm not just wanting to heat 300+ SF, but move heat around as much of the 1600 SF as possible.

I understand that you can't scoot a freestanding stove up against combustibles, but one guy at the first stove place I went to (and he's been in the business for 20+ years) told me I *should* be able to scoot a stove back against the ZC fireplace within an inch or so, and use non-combustibles to do some pretty finishing work (concrete board & tile or the metal surrounds). To clarify, the outside grill/metalwork of ZC fireplace would fully extend at least 6 inches beyond the perimeter of the stoves I was looking at if not futher and then there'd be either tile or a surround on top of that, i.e. between ZC and stove - I can draw a picture if I'm not making sense. But anyway, I sure can't find any single stove's manual out there that will tell me I can get a stove that close back up against anything, if I'm reading directions right most freestanding stoves specify at least 8" - 10" even around non-combustibles. Thoughts???

Karen

 

[Pagey]

My Lopi Endeavor has a rear clearance to combustibles (CTCs) of 4.25" using approved double wall stove pipe. That's a pretty low CTC for a freestanding stove. I think the Quadrafire 4300 step top is as low or even lower, but check their site to be sure.

 

[3dogsrule]

If it's that low to combustibles, then shouldn't it be even lower to non-combustibles??

K

 

[Wet1]

K,

As I stated above, you'll be able to heat the majority of your house in that climate with either, the question will be how large of a firebox you can fit in there in the case of an insert and if a stove (and corresponding vent) will fit in your ZC FP. If you're going to vent a stove into the ZC, it's going to have to be a rear venting stove with the vent fairly low so it can go into the ZC. You obviously don't want a long horizontal run if you do this, so the stove might have to partly sit in the FP. Distance to noncombustibles is generally not an issue... but be certain there aren't unseen combustibles behind those noncombustibles!

 

[Pagey]

That's a good point, Wet1. Just because a surface itself is non-combustible doesn't mean you're in the clear safety wise. If I have a brick wall behind my stove, for example, that is right up against 2x4 studs, the brick won't burn but it sure will transfer all that heat to the 2x4s.

 

[3dogsrule]

OMG, I was in this stove place for 1.5 hours and walked out even more confused and almost in tears. Why must I be so hard to please? Heat, beauty, low maintenance and not too expensive...ha! I'm screwed. I can't even go into the details now, will save the new questions that got raised until tomorrow. But at this point all he could offer was a Country Flame model 02. Catalytic, which I didn't want, too low efficiency to qualify for the government thing, and it's only rated at 34k BTU. I need a beer...

Karen