? for the soap stone stove owners

[frwinks]

thank you, the plan is to finish it off with antique beams to match the sealing beams.... one day.....lol

 

[loneeagle15]

According to hearthstone the flag stone will be good for your hearth protection I had concerns about building my hearth pad and wrote them this was their reply


Unless the stove is installed into an alcove, the hearth (floor protection) does not require a specified R-value. The backer board will provide the ember protection that is required, as long as it is a continuous section that meets the minimum dimensions of the hearth (see the attachment from the test lab).



Jim Casavant

HearthStone Quality Home Heating Products

Technical Support

Phone 802-888-5232 Extension: 225

Fax 802-888-7249

 

[colsmith]

According to hearthstone the flag stone will be good for your hearth protection I had concerns about building my hearth pad and wrote them this was their reply
"Unless the stove is installed into an alcove, the hearth (floor protection) does not require a specified R-value. The backer board will provide the ember protection that is required, as long as it is a continuous section that meets the minimum dimensions of the hearth (see the attachment from the test lab).

Jim Casavant
HearthStone Quality Home Heating Products
Technical Support
Phone 802-888-5232 Extension: 225
Fax 802-888-7249"

If you read the Heritage manual, or any other Hearthstone manual regarding their woodstoves, it tells you the specific requirements for the hearth. For the Heritage, the hearth must be 42 x 42 inches minimum, with an R value of 1 or greater. For that part it doesn't matter if it is in an alcove or in the middle of a large room. And the hearth has to extend 16 inches in front of the stove. There is nothing in the manual about "this doesn't apply if you don't like to use the front door." I think what this Jim is saying is that the R-value of the covering material of the hearth itself doesn't matter (could be stone, tile, marble, brick, etc.) as long as the correct backing material is there. For instance, I know that the R-value of tile is not considered in our hearth, just the value of the Micore and cement board underneath it, which has to add up to an R-value of 1 or more. DrBond was not talking about any insulating protection under the flagstone, just putting down the stone itself. Our building inspector and the person from our insurance company both looked at our manual, asked about the hearth composition, and measured the distance from the front of the stove to the front of the hearth. There is no way this guy's stove meets the Hearthstone Heritage requirements or would pass anyone inspecting the woodstove installation. And mentioning he has a hearth rug where he is supposed to have real hearth, well, he likes to live dangerously.

 

[mikeathens]

I got mine up to about 600 a few times without trying...nice heat, but I was uncomfortable with it only because of the manual "overfire" range. Typically, we are at 400-500 F.

 

[cbrodsky]

For what it's worth - the 16" clearance is dictated by the door - not the glass radiating heat onto the floor. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's the code.

Woodstock Fireviews require only 8" from the front of the stove only because the front window doesn't open. In fact, it was a reason I went with their stoves, because I didn't have to build a hearth as far out and could meet code. Per their site:

The stove will have to sit on a non-combustible surface, which extends beyond the perimeter of the stove at least eight inches on three sides, and at least sixteen inches on the loading door side.

In reality, the floor gets a lot hotter 8" from the front of my stove window than 8" from the metal side door, so this is not really based on a heat transfer analysis - it is based on a scenario where someone burns it with a door open like a fireplace. Additionally, on a raised hearth, you have even less exposure to the floor in front of your stove if you never use the front door.

My opinion (which will set some folks off) is that you're perfectly safe as long as the hearth under the stove is built to spec. You would still have a problem w/a difficult inspector or insurance adjuster if they raised a stink over it.

-Colin

 

[webbie]

The door clearance thing is because of sparks and coals rolling out, not heat from the door.

 

[elkimmeg]

You know if he claims to never to use the door, I could accept that if it was welded shut. I can not sit in his home and monitor his usage 24/7

as an inspector I have to assume a door can get used ,unless permanantly fixed so that it can not be opened. Really that's not a hard a** approach. Everyone knows the requirement and if one reads their manual ,then it is pretty hard to miss it. Then again if one read their manual,they would have seen the requirement of permitting and inspections

So Ny soapestone are you advocating blatant scoffing of code and installations according to the listings? OR are you advocating only following what suits your situation.
Are you recomending other to follow your advice, to only apply what suits them? I'm sorry NFPA211 has no NY Saoapestone exceptions that I have read.

I pointed what all other here also saw. Lack of proper clearance to the loading door and it is not even close. Nothing you said makes it any less non compliant.

Generally I agree with most of your post and respect your knowledge but this time you crossed a line . You would have been better not responding, than advocating scoffing code.

I think I do a decent job of providing a degree of safety while inspecting. Your post just underminded all, that I have been trying to bring forward, in respect to proper stove installation safety

 

[cbrodsky]

You know if he claims to never to use the door, I could accept that if it was welded shut. I can not sit in his home and monitor his usage 24/7

as an inspector I have to assume a door can get used ,unless permanantly fixed so that it can not be opened. Really that's not a hard a** approach. Everyone knows the requirement and if one reads their manual ,then it is pretty hard to miss it. Then again if one read their manual,they would have seen the requirement of permitting and inspections

So Ny soapestone are you advocating blatant scoffing of code and installations according to the listings? OR are you advocating only following what suits your situation.
Are you recomending other to follow your advice, to only apply what suits them? I'm sorry NFPA211 has no NY Saoapestone exceptions that I have read.

I pointed what all other here also saw. Lack of proper clearance to the loading door and it is not even close. Nothing you said makes it any less non compliant.

Generally I agree with most of your post and respect your knowledge but this time you crossed a line . You would have been better not responding, than advocating scoffing code.

I think I do a decent job of providing a degree of safety while inspecting. Your post just underminded all, that I have been trying to bring forward, in respect to proper stove installation safety

This isn't a safety issue as far as the front door goes the way that this users has stated they use the stove. It is an arbitrary element of the code that does not reflect the fact that this user may have zero desire to ever use a front loading door. Clearly, his setup makes it clear that he does not use the front door and side-loads. He does have a responsibility to disclose this if he ever sells the home - it will likely come up during a home inspection.

Personally, I didn't consider a Hearthstone because I would have had a problem with the 16" in front of the front door - would have made for an awkward installation. Depending on this individual's installation constraints, they may not be able to extend their hearth that far forward without causing a tripping hazard of some other problem.

As far as their personal safety goes, I think the person made a very reasonable and informed judgment call if they decide to simply not ever use the front door and instead rely on a side door. It is over the top to try to scare this guy into thinking his house will burn down because he doesn't have 16" in front of a door he doesn't use. That's when code arguments are getting a little out of hand and detract from real issues that may be a safety risk.

I could also argue that you've now advocated modifications to a manufacturer's design by suggesting that he weld it to meet code. Are you qualified to recommend such modifications? Does the manual explain a procedure to weld the door shut or are you making it up as you go along? Are you a licensed professional engineer? Does the EPA approve modifications to the stove after testing is completed? You and I both know such arguments would be silly, and welding the door would be a perfectly fine backup measure. But I could still make the argument that your statement was reckless and in violation of all sorts of regulations, even when you're just trying to help. Common sense can go a long way.

No comment on the other issues which may well need to be addressed - just the door issue.

-Colin

 

[elkimmeg]

there are places in the code where a wondow to close to an exhaust vent can be made inoperatable to satisfy code such as screwing the sash so they can not be opened
I have not requested UL approval to screw the sash. All of this is a moot point the stove was never permitted or inspected that alone violates the listing at this point he has chosen to arbiturarly to pick and choose what part of the listing if any he used to installation compliance. Without a permit again a moot point the stove should not be there in the first place.
Second if he really had and issue he could have purchased a Jotul Black Bear and installed as such that the clearance infront of the door is a none issue


That like saying geez officer I'm mark Martin It ok for me to speed in that zone I'm trained to drive at these speeds.

Another part of your arguement is you engineering disipline appicapable to code issues Would you please sign off this guys installation in lew of code and cornirm no danger exist and that the door will never be uses. If you are not then your are even more guilty of advocating what has been tested and listed no different my welding or permantly making the door inorperable id a valid request. Y If you tell me you will never use the door what about the wife guest children the next owner are you willing to record it in a deed restriction

This is a ridic arguement you can not certify this non permitted non code compliant setup any more that I can pass it. Lets move on
He had choices he did not make as such the Jotul installation The code enforcement official could demand the stove removal No ticket no laundry No permit
He came here and now it was pointed out he has a non compliant installation. Its not in my jusisdiction. I do not have to deal with it


BTW I agree with the height consideration of adding to a safety margine but sparks glowing embers do fall to combustiable surfaces below..

 

[cbrodsky]

there are places in the code where a wondow to close to an exhaust vent can be made inoperatable to satisfy code such as screwing the sash so they can not be opened
I have not requested UL approval to screw the sash.

But you do see how I could make a lot of the same arguments that when you recommend welding and modifying a solid fuel appliance - you have now stepped into very risky territory when you go down that road. I agree with you it's a great idea and probably a good way to protect himself legally. But I could also be difficult about it and say that now you've violated 10 different regulations and laws, even though you're applying your good wisdom and common sense to the problem. The reality is you're not qualified to say that anymore than I'm qualified to tell him "you're A-OK" - but I think we can both give some advice that is constructive about just how big a problem the door really is for safety, and some good ideas of fixing it.

All of this is a moot point the stove was never permitted or inspected that alone violates the listing at this point he has chosen to arbiturarly to pick and choose what part of the listing if any he used to installation compliance. Without a permit again a moot point the stove should not be there in the first place.
Second if he really had and issue he could have purchased a Jotul Black Bear and installed as such that the clearance infront of the door is a none issue


That like saying geez officer I'm mark Martin It ok for me to speed in that zone I'm trained to drive at these speeds.

I bet at some point in your life, you've done 60 in a 55 when the officer wasn't looking. You probably didn't risk your life in the process and used informed judgment in deciding to do so You could still get a ticket and you know that every time you do 60 in a 55... but a lot of officers will use their discretion and not pull you over in that scenario.

You are right that he will be exposed to potential problems from insurance/resale inspections - my only point is we need to temper that with just how dangerous the situation really is to his personal safety, knowing how he is using it. As I noted, I chose to let my installation constraints partially dictate the stove type, as you suggest. But I can relate to the problem and I don't think he is being reckless by never using the front door in such a design.

Another part of your arguement is you engineering disipline appicapable to code issues Would you please sign off this guys installation in lew of code and cornirm no danger exist and that the door will never be uses. If you are not then your are even more guilty of advocating what has been tested and listed no different my welding or permantly making the door inorperable id a valid request.

I wouldn't and couldn't "sign off" on it - and I think I made it clear that it is not in strict compliance, and he may have issues with that at some point. But I also wouldn't tell him to lose sleep over it worrying he is going to burn down his house.

If you tell me you will never use the door what about the wife guest children the next owner are you willing to record it in a deed restriction

Personally, I would never have guests or children operate my stove anymore than I'd have them drive my car - that's just me. I'm protective of it - only my wife is trained in the ways of Woodstock

This is a ridic arguement you can not certify this non permitted non code compliant setup any more that I can pass it. Lets move on
He had choices he did not make as such the Jotul installation The code enforcement official could demand the stove removal No ticket no laundry No permit
He came here and now it was pointed out he has a non compliant installation. Its not in my jusisdiction. I do not have to deal with it


BTW I agree with the height consideration of adding to a safety margine but sparks glowing embers do fall to combustiable surfaces below..

Agree - it all comes down to how he uses the door. If he never uses that door, I would argue his hearth is actually safer than mine because he will have lower floor temperatures in front of the stove than I. So I wouldn't paint him as reckless based on this door issue - he should just be aware that this could be a problem for him at some point in the future, and I think you did offer a good layer of protection so he can defend this install should he choose to continue using it without a permit.

-Colin

 

[elkimmeg]

enough said we have beat it to death time to move forward
Damn still running my stove its only 35 here

Got to run I have a request to make custom moldings. I have to duplicate a picture frame for
my mother in law before she leaves tomorrow.. I figure I can do it with multi passes using my router table setup using different bits.
unfortunately it is not a stock molding