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FREE Chain oil

Post in 'The Gear' started by Extremebison, Dec 31, 2010.

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  1. Battenkiller

    Battenkiller Minister of Fire

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    Hell, my saw is a lot more efficient that I am. All that extra huffing and puffing will surely release more CO2 into the atmosphere than my saw produces. Plus, all the beans I'll need to get through the work day will produce copious amounts of methane in my own exhaust. Then there's the environmental impact of growing those beans, processing them, canning them, sending them by rail to the warehouse, trucking them to supermarket, putting them on the shelf (more CO2 and methane produced by the stock clerk), driving to the store to buy them, cooking them on my stove (wasting fuel, and creating even more CO2, CO, unburned HCs, PAHs, etc.), then running the dishwasher to clean up after.

    Considering all of the above, I think it's rather obvious that the EPA should stay clear of the whole chainsaw issue if they really want to help the environment.

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  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    I wonder what the carbon footprint of this thread is? I leave my 90W laptop charger plugged in all the time. Perhaps Sisu has a really big screen monitor. Craig's server is dual core 3GHz.
  3. Battenkiller

    Battenkiller Minister of Fire

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    Yikes! I'm running an iMac with a 2.66 GHz Quad-Core i5 processor and a 27" LED backlit monitor. I better sign off and go cut some wood with my chainsaw if I want to save the planet.
  4. Sisu

    Sisu Feeling the Heat

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    I agree. With all the hot air generated on here, I think the polar ice caps are melting faster.
  5. Battenkiller

    Battenkiller Minister of Fire

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    No, nothing like that at all. Don't you think that's a bit of hype? We are talking about adding small amounts of extra toxins into the environment (or likely into the wood, as Lee states) with the used oil.

    BTW that study with the long a$$ url that you linked to speaks of an increase in PAHs. PAHs are (often carcinogenic) aromatic hydrocarbons, not heavy metals. And I'm pretty sure you release as many PAHs into the environment by burning one round in the stove than you do by cutting up a whole cord with used oil as bar lube.

    As for me, I was using my electric saw inside and the smell of the good Husky-brand oil I was using was so bad I decided to use canola oil instead. Not as cheap as free oil, but cheaper than bar lube and it's supposed to be very superior as a lubricant. My wood smells like salad now, and the biggest danger lies in the temptation to eat it.
  6. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Sisu
    I'm not passionate about using it. I'm just sick of enviro wackos blowing the nonexistent hazards of it out of proportion.
    The liabilities of storage and transport for recycling are too great for me not to have a constant use for it and be rid of it.
    I produce 100 plus gallons per year and it is used practically as fast as it is produced. Some as bar oil , most burned in diesel engines. Which is approved of by the EPA.
    If burning it in low temp engines and shop heaters is approved of then why woodn't usage as bar oil.
    How hot does a bar get?
    Is some burned up on the bar?
    Heavy metals from engine wear are mostly exhausted . They are already in the air at such large volumes some guy using a gallon or 2/year don't mean jack to the environment. OR are the heavy metals absorbed into the ground where they came from, foliage, or wood which is cut and burned.
    What percentage is left on the wood and burned in the stove.
    Sawdust is carcinogenic. Maybe we should quit cutting wood.
    http://ohioline.osu.edu/aex-fact/0595_1.html
    Next time your traveling the interstate and cross a bridge look at the entrance and exit where there is an expansion joint. If it's rough you'll see a dark stain dead center of the lane. What do you suppose this is within feet of a stream or river which runs off the concrete. I don't ever see enviro wackos out there cleaning up there own oil spill from there own cars. Ever walk down a RR bed. The grease and oil that comes off trains will blow your mind .
    When you build a glass house to live in ,make sure it's more than just the south wall!

    BTW a 2-3% WMO to diesel fuel mix gained me 20% better fuel mileage. What effect did 20% better fuel economy have on the environment. It has a $7,000/year effect + on my wallet.

    http://100777.com/node/1117

    Your environmental coon hound is bayin' up the wrong tree,,, the coon is in the next woods over!
  7. Extremebison

    Extremebison New Member

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    I would like to see the a study on how much energy is wasted in the recycling process. It would be interested to see, how much $ someone is making on my garbage. Going to get a little off topic here got to warn you, but this is why a reuse and not recycle. Just a few things I have seen done that upsets me. This is my personal experiance it's happening right in my back yard.

    One ex. I pay to drop a dead fridge at the Whitehorse landfill. Then the city allows people to come in and scavenge the metal off the appliance. They cut the lines releasing refrigerant in the atmosphere, to collect the copper and alum. Sure there suppost to evac. every fridge but it's to late when they pile them all up with a loader, busting open lines. In theory they should pay me to drop it off, especially if some else is making money off the unit, recycling the metal and refrigerant, at least let me drop it off for free. The only thing stopping me from dumping that old fridge in the ditch is moral's. I know all this and have seen it done right in front of my eye's, as I worked in the appliance industry as a Appliance repair guy by trade.

    Another beef is the gov allows companies to manufacture appliances, which only have parts available for them for 5 years after purchase. So know we have created a bigger problem, every five years we have to throw out our range, dishwasher, fridge and so on. I quite repair work because I couldn't justify billing a customer for a service call diagnosing a faulty clock, then trying to order another clock to fix the range finding out that they don't make them anymore. I then tell the customer they have to buy a new range, as parts aren't available for the unit anymore, and they owe me a call out. Of course I'm the bad guy, and have nothing to do with the of the unit. I've had enough with the manufacturing sector, I think the automobile sector is heading this direction slowly also.

    I'm switching to wood cook stove and wood boiler to take care of my DHW, cooking baking and heating needs. These stoves and boilers or at least built in the country by smaller scale operations, the wood cook stove is built in Canada. My boiler is coming from the USA, but there not made in China. Supporting North America as a whole. The fuel for these units, will be reducing the fire hazard around my property and community for years to come. The beetle kill here is rotting faster then Yukoners can burn it. I also have a wood cook stove on my deck, for canning, and cooking and baking during the summer. So reusing motor oil for chain oil while cutting wood for these units maybe isn't such a sin.

    Were could I send a sample of used oil and have it broken down, then we should have bar oil also looked at so we can compare the two. It would be interesting, until I see the facts, then I'm sticking to free bar oil for my saws.
  8. sgt7546

    sgt7546 Member

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    To the OP, thats for the tip about used motor oil.

    I'll def. give it a try.
  9. golfandwoodnut

    golfandwoodnut Minister of Fire

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    All I ever used in my Husky was used motor oil and I did not even filter it, never had a problem. I got more concerned with my new Stihl as the dealer claimed that used oil was more acidic and may cause some damage over time. I still occasionally use it. If I was out of other oil I definetly would use it in a pinch.
  10. Sisu

    Sisu Feeling the Heat

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    Well Lee, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't know exactly how this thread about a tip for substituting used motor oil for bar oil devolved into waste oil diesel, enviro-wackos, frog hairs, crude oil refining, lengthy urls, etc.. I think you might have answered why the EPA approves of waste oil use in diesel fuel. Perhaps the benefits outweigh the cons. This is something that the EPA can only answer. However, I am sure if we were discussing over a beer vs a keyboard we would perhaps have a better understanding and appreciation of each other's points of views. :)

    I do think the devolution of the thread had something to do with some posters taking issue with the point I (and some others) were trying to make. My point was and still is "that used motor oil is more hazardous than designated bar oil and therefore it is not a good idea to use as bar oil." I am strictly talking about bar oil substitution, not pollution from other sources, carbon footprints, Whitehorse's recycling program, government inefficiency, carcinogens of wood dust, etc.

    I agree this is small potatoes compared to scale of most ills of planet. Yet there are still hazards associated with used motor oil substitution as bar oil. I just don't understand why you would intentionally do something which increases your exposure and can potentially add to the chemical burdens on your body, in order to save a few bucks. Especially when cleaner bar oil is fairly cheap and available. If vegetable oils work, even better.

    The assertion that the hazards with used motor oil are non-existent is false. As has been stated in previous posts, used motor oil does contain a cocktail of heavy metals, PAHs, and other compounds. Here is another link (this is short one): http://www.fws.gov/caribbean/es/PDF/Contaminants/oilused.pdf It is from the US Fish and Wildlife Service.

    In this document, it states a lot of things, including: "Hydrocarbons from oil can move to atmosphere or settle through water to bottom sediments, where they may persist for years [961]. Metals from oil may build up in various media [961].
    The concentration of various PAHs is much higher in used oil than in (fresh) lubricating oil [519]. For example, Grimmer et al. reported concentrations of dibenz(a,c)-anthracene, 4-methylpyrene, fluoranthene,
    benz(a)anthracene, benzo(e)pyrene, benzo(g,h,i)perylene, and benzo(a)pyrene, respectively, 36, 49, 253, 720, 1,112, 4,770, and 7,226 times higher in "used" compared to "fresh" oil [519]."
    If you have any studies/literature that speaks differently, please let us know.

    In this forum, I have always been impressed the way members help each other. There are countless tips given each day which are invaluable. However, every once in a while, a tip is given that has been proven by more knowledgeable members not to be as helpful or outright dangerous. Those are the times more knowledgeable members will pipe up to give their two cents.

    As this is related to my education and field of work, I felt it my duty as a proud Hearth member to give "two cents" to make members aware of the potential hazards via exposure through this use. It is not only about the "birds, fish and the trees" but your own exposure too (skin absorption, inhalation, ingestion). My intent was and is to help us members to be safe as possible out there.

    Please try to shake your biases and heed what I have written. I have no illusions of environmental piety and I do not have a desire to control people's lives. Just remember, I make money from the actions and misadventures of people who were ignorant, arrogant, and/or wanted to save a buck, etc.
  11. Mcbride

    Mcbride New Member

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    The used motor oil already exists, and something has to be done withit, so chainsaw bar oil is a great use of it.
    A lot more damage is done producing new oil, specially labeled as bar oil for the use. Than using up old oil in a good way.
  12. yanksforever

    yanksforever Member

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    Thanks for the tip BUT not in my new Stihl MS 362....maybe for my piece of crap homelite but not for my new saw.
  13. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Independent case studies have shown by different sampling techniques the contaminants found in used oil are due to increased regulations over the years causing producers(oil change shops) to mix liquids other than used oil(antifreeze,turpentine,paint thinner,parts washer fluid,high strength cleaners) together. Recycling companies are also the reason many samples test high for nasties as they often haul other very toxic chemicals and wastes in the same vaccum trucks waste oil is collected in with no decontamination in between hauling different wastes.
    What better way for a oil recycling company to promote their biz than by knowingly allowing a "contaminated" sample to be tested by a research lab.

    Samples by independent labs taken directly from autos and not mixed in an oil bulk tank have shown much lower amounts of metals and other contaminants vs. bulk tank oil samples vs. samples from recycler refiners and that samples that have been settled out contain minimal metals and contaminants. Most of the nasties are contained in the sludge and water after settling.

    Like I've said before, most metal wear is in the upper cylinder of an engine. To get into oil , metals and nasties from the burning of gas wood have to blow by the rings and cylinder of an engine. The easiest escape route is through the exhaust. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most from an engine is in the air already.
  14. firefighterjake

    firefighterjake Minister of Fire

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    To each their own . . . live and let live . . . for what little oil I use I just buy the bar oil at my local dealer to help him out a bit . . . and since he realizes that folks can buy the dino oil pretty inexpensively he gives a pretty good rate on the enviro oil . . . since I rarely go through a jug or two a year the small cost is not that big a deal to me . . . for others it might be a significant outlay of cash though.
  15. gpcollen1

    gpcollen1 Minister of Fire

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    Not managed as Hazardous Waste if it is managed as USED OIL - which you are not doing. If you were caught, you could get cited for either USED OIL regs or Haz Waste. I would bet my pay check that the used oil will trigger the TCLP levels for metals and be Haz Waste.
  16. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Used oil is not considered haz. waste. UNLESS it is mixed with other stuff such as paint thinner,antifreeze, etc.
    Go to the EPA website and read up.
  17. Battenkiller

    Battenkiller Minister of Fire

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    I guess the same reason why people eat the wrongs food (especially the poor who are trying to make food stamps stretch), smoke cigarettes, drink to excess, use recreational drugs (guilty as charged), watch porn on the Internet (no comment), make unnecessary trips with the car (or maybe the truck that they justify owning because the need it to "scronge" firewood. Let he who is without sin... you know.

    I have several Canadian friends who get on my case about burning plastic wrap in a hot campfire, but have no problem with the fire itself, even though it has been proven to create all of the compounds your study lists in the waste oil - in significant amounts - while polyethylene burns almost entirely to CO2 and H2O in a hot fire. The plastic just seems dirtier to them, and perception is reality, eh? They also appear to be guilt-free about chartering a bush plane to take them hundreds of miles into the wilderness just so they can show videos on YouTube of their adventures in NWT. Absolutely unnecessary in a country that has more moving water close to civilization than any other country in the world.

    People do what they do because they aren't perfect, and pointing it out to them on a public forum isn't going to do anything but make them more set in their ways. Proof of this is the fact that almost everyone here still dries their wood outside instead of in the basement like I do. ;-)

    Yes, vegetable oil works. Canola oil is actually pressed from a selectively bred form of rapeseed that was developed by Canadian botanists to eliminate the erasic acid that is toxic to humans. It's name is an acronym for "CANadian Oil Low Acid". Before that, rapeseed oil had it's primary use as one of the best lubricants known, particularly in wet conditions. Lots of chainsaw carvers are using it because they don't want to breathe in the bar oil, old or new. They spend hours a day constantly running their detail saws, way more time spent slinging oil than most loggers. Most of this time, only the tip of the bar is used, so oil goes everywhere except for a bit on the wood. But canola oil ain't free. I'm sure many guys and gals out there carving would try the used oil instead of regular bar oil, just for economical reasons. Many wear masks now so they don't breathe in the wood dust, so they probably feel even safer. They are wrong, but pounding the point home won't convince anyone. Perception is everything.


    On to that study you cited... what do you say about this:


    It appears that the actual act of refining this stuff causes plenty of problems, lots more than the amount that ends up on the firewood we'll burn. And the amounts? Well, they were in the wastewater effluent, weren't they? Who knows how concentrated they actually were in the oil itself? Don't make the assumption that they got diluted by the water, they may have actually gotten concentrated more by the process. What happens to the wastewater? Would Hugh Carey drink a glass of the stuff? :-/

    The sad fact is that the big refineries and recyclers and chemical companies and paper mills are by far the most egregious offenders in this little dance. If some guy wants to use a little of this stuff in his saw, I really don't think that makes up even a tiny fraction of the amount that ends up leaking onto the parking lot asphalt at my local Wal-Mart every year.
  18. qlty

    qlty Member

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    I bought my home 46 years ago it had over 100 Norway Maples that I began cutting down and being frugal started using old crank case Eng oil in my chain saw.i found the bar and chain was wearing and running hotter than with bar oil and soon stopped using the old motor oil.Today's motor oil is HD or high detergent,it carries the impurities,metals and what ever is in it so they will be taken thru the oil filter of a car engine,this stuff is abrasive and tells me why it caused my chain & bar to wear quicker.If this was not so you would never have to change your car's Eng oil.Another fact is that Bar oil has a higher sling factor this enables the oil to adhear to the bar and chain better. I am sure some will rebut this but I will not use it any more.JMO
  19. ddug

    ddug New Member

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    That's what I was trying to say in my first post. Way back when when I worked at a saw shop the mechanics were always complaining about people using nasty old oil on their bars, said it should never be done and explained to me why bar oil was superior for the job. They had been working on saws all their lives and were in their early 70's. Maybe they were wrong, maybe oil wasn't as good back then, I don't know.

    I threw in the part about the containments in the old oil mainly because I don't want that stuff flinging in my face, which seemed to draw quite the heated debate.
  20. Jutt77

    Jutt77 Feeling the Heat

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    I'm FAR from being a post-modern environmentalist, however, to me, spraying used motor oil around the woods is on par with littering in the woods -or- taking a sh*t in the woods at a camp site without digging a cat-hole -or- shooting towards the noise in the bushes versus having visual confirmation of the deer before taking a shot. It just comes across as being somewhat lazy and irresponsible.
  21. Extremebison

    Extremebison New Member

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    Whats the difference? if you dumped a jug of chain oil on the ground or motor oil, it's still oil, think about it, you think buying a jug of chain oil makes it clean and safe. It's still oil, it don't matter which way you turn it, it's still oil, used or not. You think Premium chain oil is safe to inhale, or have on your hands, I don't think so. So really come know thing about what your saying.

    My chain saw makes me money. When I'm not guiding. I sell firewood part time and build cabins, plus cutting my own wood for my house, and rental cabins. I cut alot of wood every year, I run a husky 3120 for bucking and milling, and pack a 55 rancher for limbing, and little bucking jobs, this oil has never created a problem for my saws.

    No it's not a crime using motor oil as chain oil. I leave all my camping sites just as I have found them while I guide, I work in the most pristine places on earth and you would not even know that in some areas I have used the same tenting spots year after year. We drink out oll our streams no treatment. If you were to go Camping there you would think you were the first person to be in that very valley. This is were I work www.huntnahanni.com I know what being a stuart of the land is all about, I work, hunt, trap, and live on the land, everyday. Recycling motor oil rather then using "Premium Chain Oil" does not even come close to littering in the woods. It's not being lazy or responsible it's about thinking outside the box, making use of the problem "waste"

    Go ahead jump on the band wagon and buy your premium chain oil. In all truth thats being lazy and irresponsible, not looking for a solution to a problem. Oil is still oil whether it's been used or not it's still harmful, this I do know.
  22. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    Your better off crapping in the woods.

    http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacd/cd43/kangala.pdf

    Sorry folks,,, heavy metals are everywhere.
    How many have taken free compost from your municipality?
    Did you put it on your garden?
  23. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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  24. Intheswamp

    Intheswamp New Member

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    I'm leaning to the "clean oil...no more than I will use" mentality.

    Having said that, referring to the quoted statement above...ya'll have trained the local black bears and moose not to crap in the water? What if a new bear from across the mountain comes looking for his true love and hasn't had formal training yet? Wouldn't that be cause for concern? What's that other critter, hmmm...giardia??? Just wondering.....
  25. ironpony

    ironpony Minister of Fire

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    I work in the environmental industry.
    is asbestos bad for you? yes
    we are removing it from buildings and schools and such,
    fact: there is more asbestos exposure downtown from
    brake dust than you will ever get from inside a building
    so, what do we do???
    is lead bad for you? yes
    it was in paints, and we are trying to abate those situations
    and your exposure, there is more lead fallout in the environment from leaded fuels
    that can never be cleaned up
    it all depends on how you look at the facts......
    my couple of quarts of used oil vs. new oil
    insignificant
    want to do some good, get rid of electric cars
    do the research to see what it takes to manufacture
    and dispose of batterys the environmental impact is greater than
    any gasoline/deisel vehicle ten times over
    and you still need to generate electric to recharge the system
    clean coal...........ya, right
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