Funny How Detached We Can Get As the Site Grows

[Eric Johnson]

Just reading a thread on OWBs over in the Hearth Room and I was struck by the apparent lack of awareness (even among committed wood burners) that clean-burning central heating alternatives actually exist. The gist of the discussion seems to be wood stove vs. OWB, with no mention of the weapon of choice on this forum, the clean-burning gasification boiler. And I think, probably thanks to attitudes (justified or not) about OWBs, it's a common public perception that wood-fired boilers = pollution and large-scale wood consumption.

We get the same problem in the forest products industry in that only a small percentage of the population is aware that you can create healthier forests with proper forest management techniques. Most people tend to equate logging with environmental destruction. It drives those of us who know better, nuts, but there's not a whole lot that can be done about it, other than trying to set a good example.

 

[Nofossil]

It's a real issue. I've talked people out of OWBs, and in each case they didn't realize that there was an alternative. We need to get a few national-level articles about gasification technology. Everyone who sees it is impressed, but it's almost an underground thing.

I'm thinking a show-and-tell for our legislators. Any other ideas?

 

[Eric Johnson]

Well, Northern Woodlands magazine, which is published in Vermont and goes to landowners around the Northeast, is running a feature article on OWBs and gasification boilers (Garn, primarily) in their upcoming issue. They asked me to look it over and it didn't need much work--minor stuff for the most part. But again, the article as written gave the impression that a $14,000 Garn is the only alternative to an OWB if you want a clean burn, which is one of the major points I had a problem with. I figured why scare people away when you can get into a good gasification system for less than half that?

Anyway, the problem solves itself if the EPA ever gets real about air quality standards. Until then, I try to share the good news with as many people as I can. Most people say they want to do the right thing for the environment, but I think in the end, less wood consumption and less smoke to bring the local heat down on their homestead is what sells most people on the clean burn.

 

[WRVERMONT]

Well first. I realy enjoy listening to you two. Nofossil and Eric, Exactly true. People often don't realize the gasification option. Though many "Gasifying" OWB's are showing and will be showing up, I can't help it, I like the elegance of a IWB(Indoor wood boiler) Gasification Type. In my opinion they have worthy benifits. People are learning from people like us. Thanks again for your ongoing support of the topics.

 

[WRVERMONT]

Oh, How slow things can move for such proven technologies.

 

[leaddog]

Last spring before I bought a gasifier I attended a zoneing meeting about OWB's and I brought a lot of info about gasifiers that I had gotten of the net to show that there was options and to try and educate. The members had heard alittle about them but most were dead set against them because all the info they had gotten from the state envioment zonning meetings that they had gone to. also one member is a heatting contractor and he doesn't feel that there is any useful system except heat pumps etc. He thought that wood smokes ......period. The other thing that they said was there wasn't any way that they could differenciate in any zoning from a gasifier and a OWB." A WOOD BOILER IS A WOOD BOILER" . We have a lot of educating to do.
leaddog

 

[Tony H]

One good example I found when telling my BIL and SIL about the gasification boiler was my SIL knew quite a bit about them from reading some articles in the "Good earth news " newsletter and it sure seemed like she had alot of accurate information on them as compared to the traditional OWB units. I was quite impressed. On the other hand I spoke with a couple of guys at a holiday party that knew "something" about gasification boilers but had the idea it was a pollution hazard a waste of resources and not worth the "meager" savings offered over using gas, I started to work on educating them but soon saw it was a waste of breath and moved on.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel sometimes those who choose to run a standard OWB are looked down on here. We choose the standard OWB based on cost, or extended payback periods,fear of the comp :sick: lexity, or have oodles of free/junk wood to burn, or do not have space in the house for the boiler and/or storage. Most of us don't burn trash or tires, and we try to burn as clean and efficiently as we can.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Well, I can obviously only speak for myself, but I don't look down on any wood burners. If you lived next to me and smoked me out, then yes, you and I would have a 'discussion'.

Having spent the extra money on a 'gassifier', I know how clean they can run. But I also know how much 'smoke' they can put out when loaded improperly. Same goes for wood stoves and fireplaces. I actually think wood stoves pollute more than OWB when you factor in the [] of LA being heated. I have observed hundreds of OWB, enough to know they CAN be operated quite cleanly.

But ANY wood heating unit pollutes less than oil. The difference with oil is that we dont see most of the pollution . . . unless we live near a refinery, that is.

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel sometimes those who choose to run a standard OWB are looked down on here. We choose the standard OWB based on cost, or extended payback periods,fear of the comp :sick: lexity, or have oodles of free/junk wood to burn...

No, if you have oodles of junk wood to burn, believe me, I would recommend a "standard OWB."

Both designs have their place. A standard OWB is essentially an incinerator with heat recovery. If what you have to burn is the sort of wood that would get thrown in an incinerator, a standard OWB is the place to burn it. That wood won't burn well in a gasifier, except in small quantities.

We definitely talk more about gasifiers here, but that's mostly because there are more things to talk about on them... they're more complex. Simple is good, too, though.

I guess we do "look down" on many of the manufacturers of OWB's, because they (again, many - not all) are not always the most honest companies and try to pretend that gasifiers don't exist, rather than playing to their own strengths. When companies do that, I don't think very well of them.

But I don't look down on customers who bought them, particularly when the did the research and found out about all the options, and chose the standard OWB for the right reasons.

Joe

 

[Eric Johnson]

I don't want anybody to feel excluded and, as I've said before, my goal is to help everyone--me in particular--become better at using what they have, or make the right choice on what to get. A guy on my way to work has a new Central Boiler and he's burning dead green wood in it, and usually has only a thin stream of blue smoke coming out the stack. Very impressive. If he had dry wood, I bet it would be even less.

That said, for better or worse OWBs are a lightning rod for public scrutiny, and there's no point in trying to pretend it ain't a potential problem for everyone else who burns wood.

 

[webbie]

As an industry representative (informally), I don't push OWB or for that matter open fireplaces or non-epa stoves (in general). In the "macro" sense, I believe it is bad for the industry as a whole. It's hard for me to run around and trumpet the advantages of clean wood burning, while pushing something other than that. But that is a limited view and only mine. Eric, being in a separate industry, can span the gap much better than I can....which, I guess, is why he is the boss around here!

The bottom line is that we (and even EPA) has figured out that the USER is often the largest part of the equation. We cannot easily change the combustion design of an existing OWB, but we can talk about raising the chimney, using better wood, not burning too much garbage and other things which will help the biomass industry.

I don't look "down" on an OWB, but at the same time I am unhappy with the press stories and other stuff that they have generated. It hurts the industry efforts. That is not "personal" to our OWB friends here, but as I said....a more "macro" view.

 

[Donl]

Interesting topic!

In our township if the wood boiler/furnace/stove goes in the house, it's OK. If it goes outside as a standalone, in a shed, in a workshop or in any other building or structure it is then an OWB. I wanted to place my EKO 40 inside my workshop. That would have been the perfect place for it. However, because the township considers it an OWB in this case, the shop needs to be 330 feet from the nearest property line. The workshop is 280 feet away. Therefore, to place this unit outside of the house which is more safer and more convenient to me I had to build a small 9' X 12' building 331' from the property line.

Here is our townships definition of an "OUTDOOR WOOD FURNACE"

"A building or structure that is used to provide heat or heated water to the main building on a lot that is separated from the main building."


That definition covers just about all sources of heat, electric, wood, oil, gas, coal. etc.etc. I just hope they don't fine me if they find out that the sun provides heat to the house on a daily basis.


My feeling is that for the most part those that make the rules in this case simply don't care. It is much easier for them to make a catch all rule so they can easily just say no. I do expect that this will change in the future. If we can demonstrate that what we are doing is positive and saves non renewable resources they will come around. Probably when they do understand the government will offer financial incentives. Too late for us though.


Don

 

[BrownianHeatingTech]

I just hope they don't fine me if they find out that the sun provides heat to the house on a daily basis.

Oh, don't worry... the sun is more than 330' from your property line!

Joe

 

[wdc1160]

I just hope they don't fine me if they find out that the sun provides heat to the house on a daily basis.

Oh, don't worry... the sun is more than 330' from your property line!

Joe

funny stuff

 

[Woodrat]

My feeling is that for the most part those that make the rules in this case simply don't care. It is much easier for them to make a catch all rule so they can easily just say no. I do expect that this will change in the future. If we can demonstrate that what we are doing is positive and saves non renewable resources they will come around. Probably when they do understand the government will offer financial incentives. Too late for us though.


Don

You have to always keep in mind the old saying--(There are none so blind as those who WILLnot see. Between the attitude problems of the "I'll burn whatever please" crowd-------- &The;ignorance, egotism (and sometimes maliciousness) that that makes some of the people who gravitate toward these "making the rules" positions--- you people have a long hard road ahead!
-- I don't even "belong" here, given my woodburning setup---but I lurk constantly because I will someday have to (or more accurately, be in a position to afford to) go to a better system. If that day comes, I want to be in the position of having the information necessary to make an intelligent decision.
-- Keep up the good work and bear in mind that there are probably many people like me out here,who don't have systems like yours, but are still intensely interested in whats going on.

Best wishes -Woodrat

 

[deerhuntrer]

mtfallsmikey,
I am an OWB user for the last two years and I am educating myself slowly. You are exactly right, I purchased an OWB because I have ooddles of wood for free and I do not have alot of extra $$$. We have always burned wood, now I am heating my water with it and not burning Osama's oi

 

[Nofossil]

I just hope they don't fine me if they find out that the sun provides heat to the house on a daily basis.

Oh, don't worry... the sun is more than 330' from your property line!

Joe

Someone once said that nuclear energy is the only way to go, as long as the reactor is far enough from population centers. He figured that 93 million miles was about right .... ;-)

 

[EricV]

It's a real issue. I've talked people out of OWBs, and in each case they didn't realize that there was an alternative. We need to get a few national-level articles about gasification technology. Everyone who sees it is impressed, but it's almost an underground thing.

I'm thinking a show-and-tell for our legislators. Any other ideas?

Perfect.

There are shows on the discovery channel about alternative energy. We should propose an episode on wood gasification.

 

[EricV]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel sometimes those who choose to run a standard OWB are looked down on here. We choose the standard OWB based on cost, or extended payback periods,fear of the comp :sick: lexity, or have oodles of free/junk wood to burn, or do not have space in the house for the boiler and/or storage. Most of us don't burn trash or tires, and we try to burn as clean and efficiently as we can.

My guess is that if you are here on this site you are trying to learn to use your equipment the best you can. I for one am very vocal on OWB's. But it's the percentage of owners that don't care about the neighbors and burn anything that will fit in the door. It's those guys that are causing the legislation to come down, not the guys like you that seem to care, based on the fact you are here is great.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

I know it's a warm Feb, but you got black flies already??? :bug:

 

[Rick Stanley]

Well, Northern Woodlands magazine, which is published in Vermont and goes to landowners around the Northeast, is running a feature article on OWBs and gasification boilers (Garn, primarily) in their upcoming issue. They asked me to look it over and it didn't need much work--minor stuff for the most part. But again, the article as written gave the impression that a $14,000 Garn is the only alternative to an OWB if you want a clean burn, which is one of the major points I had a problem with. I figured why scare people away when you can get into a good gasification system for less than half that?

Anyway, the problem solves itself if the EPA ever gets real about air quality standards. Until then, I try to share the good news with as many people as I can. Most people say they want to do the right thing for the environment, but I think in the end, less wood consumption and less smoke to bring the local heat down on their homestead is what sells most people on the clean burn.

Just got my copy of Northern Woodlands. Here's an online copy of the article.

http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/clearing_air_outdoor_wood_boilers_face_regulation/


www.northernwoodlands.org

 

[Eric Johnson]

Interesting article, especially the part about the new regs in VT, ME and MA. I know that Econoburn and Garn are within the new regs--at least according to their sales reps.

 

[Johnny Ringo]

Just a little imput from a new observer and soon to be a born again wood burner after a few years rest. I've been lurking around afew days trying to understand my wood burning options. My initial impression of this site much the same as the one that took me by surprise when I picked up a slip at the local harbor. I was shocked to find out that (sailboaters don't care for powerboaters and visa versa.) What's that all about? The sailboaters call the a power boat a stink pot and I can't even repeat what the powerboaters call a sailboat. LOL My own uneducated opinion is it's not the stove its the operator. I think any class of woodburner can become a stink pot in not operated well and I've seen many OWB's in operation looking pretty impressive. Ironically tonight driving home what caught my eye was a giant plume comming out a guy's home chimmney. Anyhow this is a great site, very informative, thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

 

[Redox]

I think the Boiler Room is what finally got me to join in. The idea of clean controlled combustion of naturally produced renewable biomass is exciting in a wierd kind of way, but then I have always been labeled as wierd. One day, if things work out, I will be buying a gasifier, but first, I need a house that justifies it.
It seems that the OWB crowd has a heck of a head start in the industry and the gassers need to catch up. I saw my first gasifier last year at a mill, and was fascinated; then again, anything that needs a PLC to operate fascinates me. I think it was a Chiptec they were using to burn exotic wood scraps like mahogany and teak...