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Garn placement

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by curtis, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. curtis

    curtis Member

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    I have been thinking about where to put my garn 1500 for quite awhile now. Originally was going to build a boiler house for it about 100 feet from the house and pipe it in underground. Now I am wondering about putting a wall up down the middle of my attached garage and putting it in there. The room it would be in would be 12x25. Im wondering what you guys think about where the exhaust will come out in relation to the house. The pictures below are the garage on the left and under that window is about where the exhaust would protrude through the wall. As far as wind goes the exhaust will be point to the east so the prevailing west winds should help carry any smoke away and hopefully not let it just sit there and somehow enter the house. What do you guys think bad idea or what?
    2013-04-05 22.11.14.jpg 2013-04-05 22.11.46.jpg

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  2. curtis

    curtis Member

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    No one has any options/ideas?
  3. curtis

    curtis Member

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    78 views and not even one opinion?
  4. Put it in the garage but get a vertical flue Garn.
  5. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

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    That was going to be my suggestion also. I would check with Garn owners to find out if they ever emit sparks in the exhaust.

    gg
  6. curtis

    curtis Member

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    They can on occasion and so they have you put a 90 on the end of the exhaust and have it empty into a barrel with a screen to prevent any sparks from going anywhere. So sparks are not my concern just the possibility of smoke going into the house. I already got the garn with a horizontal flue so i dont think i could change it.
  7. curtis

    curtis Member

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    With the horizontal flue coming out below that window it would be around 12 feet from the house. If i can put it there it would save me a lot of money with not having to build another building and on the insulated line also.
  8. Frozen Canuck

    Frozen Canuck Minister of Fire

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    Dont see why you couldn't go horizontal vent. Just need a container for hot embers should they occur. Quite a few threads with photos of how others have terminated a horizontal vented garn. Worth a search & read/look.
  9. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    I would definetly put it in the garage. Thats where I have mine and I love it.
    No worries about ash, wood debris, bugs, etc.
    If you don't need the space for anything else it will save you a lot of $.

    After what I am going through with my neighbor I would be concerned awith the exhaust placement. http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/...oke-bender-seriously-i-could-use-help.108328/
    Not that you may have trouble with neighbors but more with it effecting you and your family.
    It seems real close to the back door.
    If you could, go with vertical stack, that would be my vote!
  10. curtis

    curtis Member

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    Mike I have been following your thread and while I'm sure I won't have problems with any neighbors I'm more worried about any smoke entering the house through the eves possibly.
  11. infinitymike

    infinitymike Minister of Fire

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    Can the Garn run a typical vertical stack?
  12. heaterman

    heaterman Minister of Fire

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    Not 100% sure of the layout in your pictures as far as that being the main entrance to your house but as a venting rule on any type of appliance I try to avoid exhaust near any inside corners that can trap combustion discharge when the wind swirls. Remember too that the Garn has a pretty forceful exhaust stream. It is going to blow out and up from the point of exit and looking at the pictures you have posted makes me wonder if the exhaust is going to right across the travel path to the house.
    I'd try to file that option away and come up with plan B or C or D or....... Wouldn't be my first choice.
    If you download the manual off Garns website you can find their recommendations for venting locations and that always the best place to start.
  13. curtis

    curtis Member

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    Ya i agree on it not being an ideal spot for the exhaust, was just trying to save some money. I got a few ideas from eauzonedan for a boiler building, so i think i will continue going that route with a remote location.
  14. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    Curtis,
    read the manual starting page 22. horizontal exit with vinyl is a no go. read further and see this
    "EXTERNAL VERTICAL FLUE USING AN EXTERIOR TEE" on page 27http://garn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/GARN_WHS_Owners_Manual.pdf
    It may give you some options.
    I thought the garns where plumbed for either vertical or horizontal and you switch block off plates? If they are either just horizontal or just vertical. this would give you an option to go vertical from the horizontal pipe. I don't own one but have been reading up on them for a while.
  15. curtis

    curtis Member

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    I thought the garns where that way to as far as the exhaust goes but now im pretty sure there are not. I saw that exterior tee, eauzonedan used one on his horizontal flue garn. I dont think he has his up and running yet to comment on how its working out.
  16. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    Yes he does. He has a nice set up there! His feedback would be informative.
  17. curtis

    curtis Member

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    His setup is sweet, nothing beats indoor wood storage.
  18. eauzonedan

    eauzonedan Member

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    Garns are like people......born male/female .........horizontal/vertical. Sex changes of either would require major surgery and re-plumbing .....sometimes with questionable results. No plates are there to shift and the different models are purpose built.
    I believe the exhaust pipes on Garns as well as most gassers would be best described as "pressure pipes" where there would be a positive pressure inside them because of the use of blower motors. This is unlike a wood stove where the gas travel upward creates a negative pressure in most of the flue. Bottom line here is that a Tee is not rated to be installed inside a building as if it leaked (remember it would be under positive internal pressure) very bad things could happen. CO or hot stuff is not something good inside a building. I'm guessing the vertical Garn certification gets around this as the weight of the pipes will help keep any joints together. With a horizontal unit, the horizontal pipe sections could seperate (even when screwed together) or the Tee cap could come off..........and I assume why they say a Tee must be outside the building.
    If you watch the videos of the Garns exhausted into the drums - It appears there is quite a bit of turbulence and it's my belief that any embers may not stay put....... When I opted to go vertical a few guys said they can see some glowing particles coming out of the exhaust after dark. This is why I went to a gable vent vs ridge venting or caps......Hot stuff getting into an attic is also not a good idea.
    As Heaterman Steve said.........read the manuals - they spell out the restrictions pretty clearly.
    I started planning my install inside the first floor - in a walk out shop area under the house. Martin Lunde talked me out it for a number of reasons........one of which is a limitation on the vertical length of the flue starting to suffer flow restriction due to friction losses when going up 2 - stories.......I shifted my boiler location to an external building but had already bought the horizontal Garn. If it were a do-over I think I'd go with a vertical unit. Only down side I see would be the need to get on the roof to run a cleaning rod down the flue, and depending on roof geometry / flue height above the point of penetration it may be ugly to get a rod in if it's much above shoulder height. With the Tee - I can do it from the ground. Another plus for the vertical is lots less fittings and pipe lengths. That stuff adds up fast........Like everything ....always trade offs........
    Curtis, if you have yet to take delivery, maybe you could still cut a deal with them on a vertical unit?
    Yea.......I watched way too much Tool Time and all my bigger, faster, safer etc is possibly overkill, but I still like to err on the side of conservative....
    Attached are a couple .pdf elevation drawings for your reference to see the Tee configuration..
    Dan

    Attached Files:

  19. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    It's kind of hard to get the whole picture with those after-dark shots - but couldn't you just put a short exterior s/s chimney up the side of the garage with T & cleanout on the bottom (at the height your Garn outlet would need), and just hook the Garn horizontal outlet right into that inside the garage? The same way you'd hook any appliance up to an external chimney?

    I would think long & hard before ruling out the garage install - IMO that's the way to go over the added trouble & expense of a new separate outbuilding.
  20. curtis

    curtis Member

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    Its not going to work in the garage, cieling is shorter than I thought. I know doing the seperate building is going to cost a lot more but in the end im sure it will be better all around.
  21. NE WOOD BURNER

    NE WOOD BURNER Minister of Fire

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    Curtis,
    Check on your cieling hieght. I was told they make differant anode rods to accomodate a lower cieling. You can see them on the parts list on the Garn web site.
  22. curtis

    curtis Member

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    Just found it, its called a segmented rod for the low cieling hights. eauzonedan, have to had any problems with the tee on your garn exhaust?
  23. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

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    How high is your ceiling? That might help get more input/advice.
  24. curtis

    curtis Member

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    My ceiling is 8'. Im just wondering if using a tee to go vertical has any negative effects on the garn.
  25. eauzonedan

    eauzonedan Member

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    My Tee feels rock solid when I try to tweak it. I screwed, calked and even taped (the inside joints) with alluminum tape. I used 4' horizontal run to allow plenty of room for any maintenence at the rear of the Garn. That's also where my HX will go and the location where the PEX daylight's thru the floor. The external Tee bracket that holds the Tee to the outside of the building and stand off brackets that hold the vertical pipe are stainless and very well built. For what they charge for them - they should be. Remember to understand and respect any clearance requirements from combustables. The clean out on the bottom of the Tee is single wall and inserts with abut an 1/8 turn and seems to seal very well. Not as beefy as the (other) double wall pipe however and I assume part of the reason they don't list it for inside use. Good stuff isn't cheap, but in this case it looks to be justified. Garn "done good" on their selection of their flue supplier. Up till about two years ago there was no vertical boiler option and anybody going vertical had to use a tee. I have not heard of any issues, but be advised I won't fire my system till this fall.

    As far as the height issue....... Remember to consider you have an 18" dia. manway on the top of the unit. It's 6' 4" off the floor if you set it on 2" foam per the manual. My big a$$ would be a tight fit to make the corner with only an 8' ceiling if I ever had to get in there. You may be able to do a work around by bumping out the plane of the ceiling in that area if you can miss a joist/trust to give you some extra butt room room up there. They came out with some jointed anode rods to get around the vertical clearance issue with the need to put those in from the top - so that shouldn't be an issue. If starting from scratch with a purpose built Garn Barn I think I'd stick with a 9' interior clear height structure.

    Looking at the vertical unit I don't see any specific issues as far as an 8' room height. Maylbe Kemer will chime in here and offer some input......he has one of the first vertical units. I am not aware of anything as far as clearance requirements that an 8' ceiling may get you into, but worth re-reading the manual with that in mind........... I'd also look real close at making sure I could get the ceiling and roof penetration components to all work and keep the right clearances to combustables. Dura-Tech has detailed dimensions of all their components on line and it's pretty easy to research if everythng will fit.

    Last issue....... I see they have receintly introduced a controler operated damper for the inlet air. I think it's a great idea for anyone going vertical. The flue would seem to make a great "gravity" chimney and pulling outside air thru the heated water during idle seems to have potential to be a a heat waster. Likely less of an issue if going with a horizontal discharge. I plan to stick one on.

    Dan

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