Garn WHS - how to clean the inside before filling?

[hkillam]

I'm very close to being able to fill my Garn WHS2000 with water and anticorrosion chemicals.

Question for the more experienced out there - the Garn manual says to thoroughly clean the interior before filling with water and anticorrosion chems. But how? Do you literally climb in and scrub every interior surface? I'm a bit clostrophobic, and don't look forward to such a task. Any recommendations or thoughts? I wonder if I could just apply some soapy water via pressure washer, and blast it from every available orafice, then do the same with clean water for a long time.

 

[steam man]

I look at cleaning out my solar sytem before commissioning. Basically you could use a boiler/system cleaner chemical and run that as directed in your system. I saw over at www.heatinghelp.com where they said I could use 1-2% solution of Trisodiumphosphate in heated water to flush a hydronic system for 8 hours or so. drain, flush, and refill. That's what I did. Seemed to remove all the crap in the lines.

Mike

 

[TCaldwell]

new garn gasser, i have done both routes, my reccomendation is to fill/tsp/run and flush, however before you start to refill at least check with a drop light for debris on the floor of the tank, if found climb in and vacuum out as the boiler drain leaves about 1 inch of water in the vessel., also check the hx strainers

 

[heaterman]

If you want to do it right, this is the way to clean any boiler system.

The junk you are trying to eliminate is not so much in the boiler. Garn washes the inside of each unit after assembly and every boiler plant I've ever been in likewise washes the product after assembly of the block. The issue is what's in the piping now attached to the boiler. If you used copper you now have a nice coating of flux in there that can turn acidic. With steel you have thread cutting oil. Both of which will contaminate your boiler water and all the components in the system. So..........you want to clean your entire system, not just the boiler. There isn't any other way really than filling it, firing it up to temp for at least 24 hours with cleaning chemicals added, then draining it and refilling with clean water. ( I notice a fair amount of OWB manufacturers are recommending/demanding that the fill water be distilled or de-ionized water, read your manual)
Garn includes a water filter meant to be attached to the system through which all the fill water will pass.

As far as chemical goes, the best I have found is from a company called Rhomar. Those guys have all their ducks in a row when it comes to both cleaning and treatment chemicals. You can call them at 800-543-5975 and they can give you the name of the nearest distributor. E-mail me if you can't find their products anywhere.

 

[hkillam]

Thanks for the suggestions on cleaning. Just to be clear, this system will circulate the water from the Garn to another building about 125 feet away, and transfer the heat via a Hx to a boiler for infloor heat. Are the recommended chemicals (TSP or any of the other recommendations that I haven't researched yet) OK to circulate through the PEX prior to draining? And if yes, any idea if they are OK to drain into the ground? I'm on a private well and septic system, and don't want to add chemicals to the groundwater that will be bad for me or the environment down the road. I wouldn't drain into the septic system, I guess - too much work and the same result in the long run.

Honestly, I like the sound of this better then climbing in and scrubbing for what I imagine would be a good hour or two.

 

[hkillam]

OK, WOW, to use Rhomar "prep hydronic system cleaner" in the recommended strength would require 37 Lbs of the product, at roughly $10 per Lb. (1850 gallons is considered a complete fill of the WHS2000) Well over $400 with shipping. Ouch! Further, I can't find any information about the effects of draining the entire load of TSP treated water directly into the ground - which leads me to strongly suspect that it isn't recommended.

Are there any effective cleaning methods that aren't so expensive AND can be drained directly into the ground?

Didn't anticipate this challenge when I planned the Garn install....

 

[steam man]

TSP was widely used in detergents but was stopped because of the algae blooms it created after going through drains. I don't see any MSDS data that mentions enviromental damge. Since it is sold as a house washing/siding detergent, I can't imagine it is a big problem.

Mike

 

[jebatty]

I will hazard a semi-educated guess that a 1-2% solution of trisodium phosphate may be disposed of down the drain to a municipal sewer processing plant; or if rural, dumped on the ground over a fairly large area. It is high in phosphorus and will act as a fertilizer. Be careful not to dump it anyplace where it may result in runoff to a stream, river, lake, etc. I also would not dump it into a septic system or an area with a water well. There is no neutralizing solution. Normal disposal I believe includes dilution with a large amount of water, but a 1-2% solution already is quite diluted.

See the following Material Safety Data Sheet
http://www.chemistrystore.com/trisodium_phosphate.pdf

 

[hkillam]

OK, regular TSP in bulk is starting to seem more reasonable in usage and cost - maybe $50 for the amount I'll need. Any concerns about it being in PEX for 24 to 48 hours? I'll only circulate it for the 24 hrs recommended, but it'll take awhile to drain, and then flush the tank a bit, and refill and start recirculation again - so some residual solution would sit in the PEX lines during that time.

 

[loggie]

I also was wondering about boiler treatment and cleaning for my 1250gal switzer which I have not filled yet,I cannot get inside like the garn to clean so I was thinking of using the boiler treatment at $100 a gal not sure how many gal but I depends on ph and using an in line strainer like the caleffi which can be cleaned under pressure.This way I wont have to drain since I am on well and septic and I don't care to drain all that water and chemicals on the ground ,what do you guys think

 

[heaterman]

For any of the normal boiler cleaners I would use, there is no environmental damage when used in the concentrations recommended by the manufacturer. Just check out what you're buying and read through an MSDS on the product before you select it.

As I said before, most of what you have to be concerned with is the assembly residue in your piping, oils, solvents, flux, pipe dope, etc. We have never cleaned a Garn before firing it up. We do however make provision in our piping system to thoroughly clean and rinse that before it's allowed to circulate into any boiler we install.

 

[DenaliChuck]

I think I recall that new formulations of TSP don't include phosphate even though its called TSP.

Edit: I looked and the phosphate free TSP is "shockingly" called TSP-PF! Who'd a thunk it?

 

[heaterman]

I think I recall that new formulations of TSP don't include phosphate even though its called TSP.

Very true. It doesn't work as well as the old stuff either. We've been sticking with boiler specific cleaners sold at supply houses. As I said before, Rhomar products have given excellent results.

 

[jklingel]

Am curious. What does Garn say to do? j

 

[jebatty]

Tarm had no recommendation to clean the boiler. By experience, however, the black pipe I installed needed cleaning and I didn't do it. The hot water filter caught all the pipe dope, solder flux, metal pieces, etc., plus whatever flushed out of the LP tank.

With 1000 gal of storage, I too would not fill, treat, and flush the whole system without a whole lot of convincing. It took hours of the well pump running to fill the tank.

I have a 50 micron wound string-type filter, much like a regular house water filter, but rated to 170. Since it is on the return line from the LP tank and right before the plate hx, temp is not a problem. It did catch lots of crud. I changed it once per week to start with, then moving once per month by the end of last heating season. This year it's been in for six weeks, and I don't thick I will check it until 2 months. If it's really clean after that, I may even pull it from the system, as it does add head and reduces the flow rate.

 

[loggie]

I never saw a water filter rated for 170 deg but I bet it would work well to get the crud out,what name is it?.Has anyone seen the caleffi strainer,it is about $150 in 1-1/4" but I could clean it every couple days for a while without opening the system.I think I am going this route

 

[jebatty]

I believe that I read in the instructions for my plate hx that a filter or strainer screen of at least 100 micron was recommended to protect the hx from clogging. I went the filter route because I had bought it for the old OWB, plus 50 micron filters are pretty inexpensive and at least when new did not seem to impede flow noticeably, plus I thought the filter element would do a better job than a screen in trapping whatever might be flowing through the system, especially early on when there might be a lot of stuff to catch.

Do a Google search on hot water filter and you will find both SS and plastic filter housings and filter elements.

 

[SteveJ]

Ouch!

A jump from $59.95 for plastic 200F to $235.00 for SS 250F.

http://www.filters4wellwater.com/High Temperature Water Filter Systems.html

 

[jebatty]

Keep in mind that if you put it on the return line your water temp should be much less than the supply side, and the plastic filter housing may do just fine. The SS has the added safety factor.