Getting started...over

[matt_isserstedt]

Here is my first post after a good bit of researching the archives.

What I have is a small farmhouse in Tennessee built in the 1950s. Originally I believe it had a woodstove, there's a central chimney and an old 'crock' in the wall.

Previous owners (foreclosed upon) apparently heated with room-units fed by propane...spiderweb of copper tube under the house, valves just above the hardwood in each room, the actual heaters are long gone, and the propane tank was repo'd by the supplier company.

I got thru last winter with a 5500watt electric heater. This worked and I didn't freeze any pipes (I know not much sypmathy for us southern dwellers, low for the winter was 17F which is pretty cold for here) and didn't pay any exorbitant bills. However, I only heated 1/4 of the approx 1400 sq ft (only the master bedroom and bath) and even this got pretty cold. I want to keep the electric backup mainly for when I go out of town so the house can stay "frost free"

So...fast forward to today, I've done some research, discarded an initial fascination with Vogelzang in favor of the Englander stoves. I have a friend with a large oak tree that toppled and he's offered as much or as little wood as I can cut and haul myself. Definitely enough to make it thru at least 1 heating season as a guess.

The main question or dilemma is this: my current thoughts are to abandon and demolish the central small brick chimney, get rid of the crock, and go back with a framed chimney and a triple-wall ss pipe. I don't believe the chimney is large enough to "line" with a steel single wall pipe and I have reservations about making the connection at the bottom of the crock.

So really...trolling for advice here, about my thought process or any of the details involved going back. I would call my skill level an "advanced DIY" being trained as a machinist and done plenty of farm-type projects and chores over the years.

Thanks in advance for any help. - Matt

 

[begreen]

Hey Matt, welcome. You are definitely on the right path. Man, I am amazed that you toughed it out through the winter with a single electric heater. I did that decades ago, but now there is no way.

We can only do so much via the internet. The first place I would start is by having a certified chimney sweep look at the current chimney and evaluate its condition. If it is safe and the mortar is sound, then it might be large enough to accommodate a stainless 6" liner. If so, it will save a lot of labor and bucks.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Good first post. Please give more specific info on the chimney- inside and outside dimensions, are there clay liner tiles inside it, etc. Then folks can advise you better. Welcome to the forum!

 

[matt_isserstedt]

Let me get a few pics tomorrow and post them up...I guess I knew better but darkness has fallen and I'm not keen on rooftop excursions at night

 

[matt_isserstedt]

Here are the pics...I didn't actually go up on the roof..

The crock is sort of a "T" intersection that goes to another room opposite.

And although there is a square clay tile up at the top, there is no liner...not sure if the photos show that, simply open brick and mortar. The "stovepipe cap" is something added to keep out rain, birds and insects, it just lifts out.

There are a couple tangential issues here. I've got 4 or 5 layers of shingles on the house now...this needs to change as I have a slow drip. Also you can probably see the fine job of flashing and counterflashing on the chimney...just an incredibly thick and cracked layer of roofing tar. Obviously a roofing job done on the cheap. While I am in there stripping back and possibly having to deal with partial or full re-decking, it would make sense to build a chimney which will get me down the road a few years. I feel like I can work slowly on the chimney at first, the area can be covered by the famous blue tarp as I work for quite awhile, then when the chimney is finished, I can then strip back the rest of the roof and redo.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

So...fast forward to today, I've done some research, discarded an initial fascination with Vogelzang in favor of the Englander stoves. I have a friend with a large oak tree that toppled and he's offered as much or as little wood as I can cut and haul myself. Definitely enough to make it thru at least 1 heating season as a guess.

Welcome to the forum Matt.

I will let the others chime in on the install as they have already started. However, I would like to point out this part about the large oak tree that has toppled. I would hope that you would not be cutting that up and intending to burn it this next winter. First, what type of an oak? The reason for asking is that all oak does not season equally. If it is red oak then you definitely are looking at a minimum of 2 years seasoning time before it should be burned. But regardless of what type of an oak it is, I would really hate to think about cutting any wood at this time of the year and expecting to burn it next winter. That is how people get into big problems is burning the wood before it should be burned. Time is what all wood needs. It can be hurried up only to a point but it just takes time to get that moisture out of the wood.

Good luck.

 

[Todd]

What's the inside diameter of that chimney flue? You will need an insulation wrap or pour with a stainless liner since it has no tiles. If the brick is in decent shape I would just reline with an insulation wrap. Or you could run a liner down and use some of that pour in insulating mortar around the liner which would help strengthen the whole chimney. It may be a cheaper alternative than rebuilding the whole thing.

 

[Highbeam]

Have you thought about ripping that brick mess down and installing a new vertical stainless steel chimney system?

 

[dougand3]

Welcome, Matt. I'm just down the road from you in north bama. Check your costs on liner (if possible) vs new SS chimney install and ignore current chimney. Lowes and/or Home Deport has a complete Selkirk system. Cost me: $350 for kit box (everything needed for flat ceiling install except 6 ft stove pipe - $25, locking bands - $10, 9 feet of SS chimney - $210, hi temp silicone - $10)...minus 10% coupon - get one of those! Mine was expired and I said I wouldn't buy unless they made coupon work - they made it work.

 

[summit]

get rid of that ugly (and code breaking mess) and put in a nice metalbestos chimney. there are issues , just looking at the few pics, that no liner will solve.

 

[BrotherBart]

Don't do anything until you get a look down that chimney and see what you are really working with. It is easy for people sitting in their cave to say "get rid of it" but knocking down a brick chimney in the middle of your house is a whole nuther question. If there is a tile liner all the way up, get back to us.

 

[fossil]

...The crock is sort of a "T" intersection that goes to another room opposite.

I'm kinda curious about this detail. What's in the other room? Rick

 

[johnn]

From the looks of the first picture,that chimney may well effect more than just the two rooms already mentioned, if a complete demo was to be done. In the end, you will have to have a qualified installation done by a professional held responsible for his work,,,or you will be trying to piece together all the knowledge needed to tackle this unique install so that it will pass inspection and satisfy your insurance company. Get one or two on-site survey`s of your project and go from there. It appears to me that you have a good understanding of the options available and just need a comprehensive list of questions to be answered.

 

[matt_isserstedt]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I did have one question about cutting wood this summer for use this winter. Presumably if I waited another calendar year before burning the proposed oak I'd have to buy wood for this heating season and be left to the reliability of firewood vendors...who might have just done the same thing. I've also bought firewood just for the occasional fireplace fire in other houses which was a mixture of hardwood and driftwood...the difference was apparent after it all dried out and I never burned the driftwood. What's the best solution other than to simply wait another season with wood on-hand? How do you sort out good wood vendors from bad?

Here are more pics of the current installation.

The "other crock" is capped by a (???) pie plate? paper plate? Cemented in by (???) drywall mud? Obviously unsuitable without modifications.

You see all the moisture problems that have developed around the chimney due to the sorry (read: nonexistent) flashing...the wood is badly rotted in that area and will require replacement. I can see a glimmer of daylight on one side currently from the underside.

The main body of the chimney appears to be a "hollow" concrete block (unlined) which is supplemented by smaller bricks cobbled or fitted around where the crocks enter at the bottom. There is the brickwork and the short liner which penetrates the roof. Approx square ID of the short top liner is 6-1/2".

There doesn't appear to have been much use of the chimney as I look down inside there...very clean...not that this remarkably raises my confidence!

 

[Jags]

Boy...if at all possible I would do an insulated liner from top to bottom.

 

[Highbeam]

That chimney would come down in no time, my wife could do it. After repairing the rotten wood, install the proper roof flashing for the steel pipe and you're ready to set your nice pipe.

 

[begreen]

Matt, is this a one-story house? It looks like it, but this could be relevant so I thought I'd ask. As clean as that flue is, I'm wondering if a wood stove was 'tried', but then maybe only used for occasional power outages? I'm guessing that most of its life was with a gas space heater connected. An insulated liner would eliminate the second take off which could be bricked in. The problem with getting an insulated liner in there is that the tile looks like 8" sq. with an ID of around 6.75"? If so, there's no room for a 6"liner + insulation. Downsizing the flue liner to 5.5" is a possible solution, but this appears to be maybe only a 12' high chimney from crock to top, so draft could be poor. If this is a 2 story house, then there may be sufficient height to gain draft.

Outside it will need a proper flashing at the roof and a rebuild of the exterior brick so that the top is 3' above the ridge and topped off with a properly dressed cap.

Looking at the alternative, the chimney can be removed. I've taken out a couple. It's messy, dusty work but proceeds pretty quickly once you are setup and get into it. Getting the debris out in an organized fashion is half of the job. The alternative might be to leave the current chimney alone (other than fixing the weather related issues) and use to vent a nice looking gas stove. Or is there another location where you have thought about the possibility of placing a wood stove where the flue assembly would be brand new?

 

[Todd]

I wonder why they didn't keep going up through the roof with that concrete chimney block instead of the brick? This is what I'd do. Remove the brick, flue tile, and rotten wood on upper part of chimney and replace with similar sized concrete chimney block like what is below. Then I would reline with 6" and pour some thermix insulation around it. Cap it off and reflash.

 

[Highbeam]

True Todd, most that I've seen have the block up above the roof but a brick veneer stuck to it for looks. It would be fun to flash a chimney right on the ridge. Most chimney systems assume that you are on a slope.

While rebuilding the top portion you could extend it to gain some height. Shooting for a 14'+' chimney.

 

[matt_isserstedt]

I wonder why they didn't keep going up through the roof with that concrete chimney block instead of the brick? This is what I'd do. Remove the brick, flue tile, and rotten wood on upper part of chimney and replace with similar sized concrete chimney block like what is below. Then I would reline with 6" and pour some thermix insulation around it. Cap it off and reflash.

I follow this line of thinking until I get to the detail about how to turn the corner to horizontal at the bottom of the flue. Then...I'd have to start breaking out the sidewall of the chimney to eliminate the crock, install an elbow/tee and get more horizontal sidewall clearance (assuming very little) which I'm afraid would undermine the chimney structure...as that's what's holding everything else above it.

This is a single story house btw, the history is clouded by not having any previous owner to speak to (house was financed thru the gov't FHA and when the previous owners defaulted, it got into the hands of the HUD...so essentially I purchased from HUD...and HUD sells *everything* as-is no-warranty, which I knew and expected).

Flashing at the ridge, while a challenge, will be a good use for my sheetmetal shear and brake. I think if there was *any* flashing at all it would be an improvement

 

[Wet1]

I too would probably just knock off the top (at least remove the single piece of clay liner) and rebuild the top few feet so I could run a 6" (insulated) liner down in it. The bottom should be pretty easy to tie into.

 

[Todd]

I wonder why they didn't keep going up through the roof with that concrete chimney block instead of the brick? This is what I'd do. Remove the brick, flue tile, and rotten wood on upper part of chimney and replace with similar sized concrete chimney block like what is below. Then I would reline with 6" and pour some thermix insulation around it. Cap it off and reflash.

I follow this line of thinking until I get to the detail about how to turn the corner to horizontal at the bottom of the flue. Then...I'd have to start breaking out the sidewall of the chimney to eliminate the crock, install an elbow/tee and get more horizontal sidewall clearance (assuming very little) which I'm afraid would undermine the chimney structure...as that's what's holding everything else above it.

This is a single story house btw, the history is clouded by not having any previous owner to speak to (house was financed thru the gov't FHA and when the previous owners defaulted, it got into the hands of the HUD...so essentially I purchased from HUD...and HUD sells *everything* as-is no-warranty, which I knew and expected).

Flashing at the ridge, while a challenge, will be a good use for my sheetmetal shear and brake. I think if there was *any* flashing at all it would be an improvement

How big is that thimble/crock? It looks big enough to have room to connect a snout to a liner tee. Most tee snouts have a s/s band around them that goes around the tee as you lower it down and gets tightened with a nut or screw driver.

 

[BrotherBart]

How big is that thimble/crock? It looks big enough to have room to connect a snout to a liner tee. Most tee snouts have a s/s band around them that goes around the tee as you lower it down and gets tightened with a nut or screw driver.

Especially when you have that crock on the other side as an access to work through from the back side.

I even have to wonder just how important insulating the liner is since there aren't that many points where that chimney is anywhere near framing members.

 

[dougand3]

Lemme throw some more confusion in the mix....how much floor space is between the crocks? As much as 10, 12, 16 sf? If you pulled the chimney/cinder blocks - you may could make a dandy tiled, stoned or bricked stove alcove.