Gonna take the plunge, got questions

[rpmm70]

First off, everybody here is amazing, and you all are great for helping the diy'er reach success...I have been reading on here for a long time and have learned alot. Now maybe you can help me.
I have some questions on a system that I want to build, starting this spring...For starters I want to heat my two story house (3000 sq.ft., approx 50000 btu/hr heat loss) and my shop (pole barn, insulated, 2000 sq.ft. approx 55000 btu/hr heat loss). I am looking at either an Econoburn 200 or an EKO 60, any input/feedback would be greatly appreciated on these units, or if I am off on the unit sizing. I also am going to run storage, to do it right the first time, just not sure on how much, or where to put it, but I am guessing somewhere between 1000-1500 gallon. As for the storage, probably gonna use propane tanks, and physical room is not a problem, they would either reside in the shop or in the 1500 sq.ft. unfinished basement (which is not included the house square footage, or the heat loss calc). Oh, and all heat drawn off of this system would be taken by forced air heat exchangers, as there is a furnace per floor in the house and one in the shop. (no furnace currently in the basement, but will be someday). I am hoping to achieve a "one fill per day" of the gasser. Any comments, info, and/or questions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[woodsmaster]

What part of north west Ohio are you from ? I'm in the defiance - bryan area

 

[rpmm70]

I am east of toledo, by the lake

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

It's good to hear someone talk about storage right off the bat. I don't believe a gasser should be run without it. Lots of very knowlegeable people will say it isn't necessary, I still disagree. If you can set those tanks on end so much the better. A loading unit is trouble free & superior to a regular mixer. Good luck with the one fill per day, I use about 4 to 5 half loads per day in cold weather to heat a 720 gallon tank, Randy

 

[rpmm70]

thanks for the input, maybe I have my expectations a little too high...I may not be able to get 24hr loading intervals, but u guys providing real world experience, is great to hear on what to possibly expect. I am hoping for the best, and with some, okay alot of your input, I maybe able to end up with a pretty amazing system.
If anyone could provide a typical btu/*F / gal. of h20 I could better figure coasting time between stove fills.

So apparently it matters somewhat whether you place the tanks horizontal or vertical.

As far as tank placement, if they (two or three 500 gal LP tanks) went into my shop, they would go vertical, as far as a basement install, horizontal. But one drawback to install the storage in my shop is that if I want DHW for the house, it would be an out of the way run to get the water back to the house, so basically it would get ruled out. If they went into the basement, now very doable, but horizontal install.

As I have not mentioned earlier, as of right now, my plan would be to install the boiler in my shop. KEEP THE MESS OUT OF THE HOUSE. But I also have an attached 2.5 car garage on the opposite end of the house that could allow for installation there. (But not enough room for storage)

 

[woodsmaster]

Forced air heat takes hotter water to operate than radiant or panel radiators so the storage won't last as long between fires but wont take as long to charge either because you will start with hotter water.
Maybe 2,000 gal will get you threw the day? Just have to do the math. I don't Know the formulas by heart but they are on this forum somewhere.
Don't Know if the 80 has a larger fire box? (less filling)

 

[rpmm70]

Good point. I guess that I was under the assumption, lets say we would go with the standard 120 low and 180 high temp range for storage. But that might not work too well with forced air, probably awesome for rad's/floors, but maybe not air heat exchangers. I dont know. It would be great if someone with "first hand experience" with this type setup could set me strait.
Maybe this setup just wont work that good, I kinda doubt it though, but not as good as rad's/floors.

Is there a point where too much storage is too much and the other extreme where its just not worth doing?

Also, should I consider installing the gasser w/o storage with the furnace exchangers, then when my money tree grows, add storage and rad's? sorry, I am sorta rambling...helps just to write it down...

 

[jimdeq]

In my opinion I would go with your storage in the basement. I was going to have my boiler and storage in my unattached shed and then decided to put the storage tanks in the basement. It took a little rigging and remodeling but I am glad that the heat loss is in the home.

 

[heaterman]

You will need at least 1500 gallons of storage to make it with one firing a day, maybe more like 2000. With a forced air system you are handicapped up front by the limited temp swing you can work with. Best thing you can do to overcome that is to oversize the coils in your furnace by about 50%. i.e. if the house needs a 100,000 btu coil, install one capable of 150K.

 

[jebatty]

It would be very helpful to know the minimum water temperature that you can use with the air hx. Maybe 140F? Also, your heat loss calcs, what was your low temperature for those calculations? Assuming January is your coldest month, what is the average low temp for Jan? What would be your heat loss calc for that average low temp? And I assume you have a backup heat source, right? Your storage no-burn calculation likely will be extended quite a bit if you use the average low temp for the heat loss, which may be more realistic.

With 105,000 btuh heat loss, usable hot water 140-180F, and 1500 gallons of storage, your usable stored btu's are approximately 40 x 8.34 x 1500 = 500,000. That would carry your heat load for 5 hours. If your average low temp heat loss was 80,000 btuh, that would extend the time to 6 hours.

Also consider that an Eko 60 rated at 205,000 btuh will not likely provide that output other than during the high burn period, and you might pick 75% of that for average output over a burn. That means that during the coldest periods boiler output should cover your demand but not provide much if any extra for storage, so you will be burning more or less continuously. But then again, your coldest periods may not last too long, and storage will be very useful at other times, depending on demand.

Are you also planning to provide DHW with the wood boiler/storage? Don't forget to factor in the btuh required to provide hot water needs.

Locating storage in a space that can use the heat is a very good idea, as is similarly locating the boiler in a space that can use the heat. The boiler gives off lots of heat while burning, and storage even with insulation puts out quite a bit of heat. Your overall wood burning system efficiency will increase considerably by doing these two things.

 

[rpmm70]

Our average January low temp is +16*F. The calculations that I performed were based on +10*F. I do also have backup heat sources, multiple actually. As far as the DHW, I will let the tank location (or where ever I decide to place them) dictate whether or not I use it. Basement, yes Shop, no (for DHW). So where ever the tanks are installed, the heat they will be giving off as radiant, will be used as either in the basement or shop.

As for the HX, I will assume that with a 150% core (which is just thicker) one will get a larger temp increase on the air output.
Someone on here has to have first hand knowledge of how low the temp of storage can go before it needs to be recharged...

 

[jebatty]

The few water/air hx's I have seen provide a btuh output rating at various input ratings. Check into this.

 

[rpmm70]

Does anybody have any input/suggestions on the EKO 60 or the econoburn 200? Oh, and Last nite I found what I think to be a good deal on the Biomass 60, anybody got any info on these either? I am not new to the use of grain fuels or pellets...as I currently heat with two pellet stoves. It is kinda attractive to be able to have a gasser that will burn wood, and also biomass. How does this unit compare to say an EKO 60 or EB200?

 

[woodsmaster]

I dont Know how they compare ,but I have a biomass and am very happy with it.

 

[woodsmaster]

From what I've heard the garn would be another boiler to consider.

 

[pulse]

Don't know if this will help you or not but my water/air hx is oversized at least 50% and during the cold snaps 135 degrees is as low as I can go. At that temp the house mostly maintains whatever temp it is at.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

My situation was/is similiar. I intentionally oversized my fan coils by a factor of 2X of what heatloss calc said I needed. IE., if heatloss calc said I needed 50,000 btu/hr I purchased 100,000 btu/hr coils. This has allowed me to use the water down to the same temp as my min for dhw about 120 or so, actually I will hear about the dhw not being hot enough before anyone feels even cool in the house. So a few hundred more upfront has allowed me to max out my delta T & made life with a solid fuel burning appliance much easier as I have never had to get up at 3am because the house was cold or even cool. We give up a lot in almost every way when we decide to stay with a forced air system to distribute the heat in our homes, one of the few ways you can get some back is by oversizing those coils, in my case 2X worked out fine. Glad I spent the money up front as opposed to staying up late (to light a fire) & getting up early (to light another fire) so the house is warm. I dont intend to have forced air delivery for ever but this has made it easier to live with during the interim.

Given what you have said about what you want to accomplish & how much you want to fire your boiler I would agree with others about taking a look at the Garns, they seem like a good fit for your stated situation, plenty of storage & a high burn rate. My unit sits outside the house & I like all the mess that comes with burning wood outside as opposed to in my basement, as well as not having the boiler over heat the house as we burn in the summer for dhw as well. No point having the boiler heat it up while the A/C tries to cool it down.

Hope this helps.

 

[Hunderliggur]

Make sure you insulate your tanks and pipes, even inside piping. You would be amazed at the heat loss/radiated from those parts. I have 2x500 horizontal stacked vertically (on top of each other). If you plumb the top of the bottom tank to the bottom of the top tank with large diameter (at least 1 1/2") pipe, in a fairly vertical rise, you can stratify with the two tanks in the horizontal position. Boiler is the shop and storage in the basement is a fine setup. You can use the underground pipe to draw to the shop load also, no need for a second run.

 

[jebatty]

Garn has advised that the best and most efficient application is for supply of water up to 140F and not for continuous high temperature water supply. That does not mean that the Garn does not supply hotter water, rather it means burning a load of wood to heat the tank up (as high as 180F+), letting the fire die out, and then drawing down the tank to supply heat until another firing is needed is the desirable operating routine. The lower the temperature of needed supply, the better this works.

A gasser with storage will operate in this same manner with some added flexibility, as well as operate to provide continuous high temperature supply. For example, during this past winter in my system I fired my Tarm for about 6 hours only every other day, supplying needed low temperature radiant at 100F and also charging a 1000 gallon storage tank up to 190F+/-, and then the storage providing the supply until the next firing two days later. The Garn likely would operate similarly. But the flexibility is that during the firing period supply from the Tarm was 160F+ within minutes of firing, even when storage return water was as low as 100F. My system does not need the 160F+ water, but if yours does, you have it available almost immediately. A Garn with 100F tank water will take considerable time to provide 160F water and hotter because the supply temperature will be the temperature of the whole tank as the tank is being heated.

The reason for the flexibility is that a gasser only needs to heat up the water in the boiler (50-100 gal or so) before it can provide really hot water, while the Garn needs to heat up its entire tank first, up to 3200 gallons. depending on the Garn model. With proper plumbing and controls, the gasser will supply the needed hot water and direct the excess to storage until the storage has reached the desired temperature, often 180F +/- (I heat mine to 185 usually, but can heat as high as 192F with my present control).

On the other hand, while a gasser is not at all difficult to load, fire, and operate, the Garn is about as simple and fool proof as boiler operation can be. And Garn now seems to be offering an improved control system over what it offered in the past.

There is no magic bullet here. You need to assess your needs and then decide on the type of boiler, boiler and storage, or Garn-type integrated boiler/storage which best meet those needs.

 

[heaterman]

Look up Scott Sloan at the Bryan Country Store and ask him about a Garn.

 

[Duetech]

To get good results with forced air my temps could not go below 150f. 140f worked bu ran the fan longer. 120f just seemed to run the fan continuosly. I shoot for 145 as the low now. I only have one furnace and used the EKO40.

 

[heaterman]

Fan Coils, Heat Exchangers and Water Temperature......Oh My!! (with apologies to the Wizard of OZ people)........

There are indeed a host of variables that will ultimately determine the lowest temp you can run your storage at. These are impossible to determine here and can only be done with an accurate heat loss calc of the structure, a duct sizing/cfm calculation based on the heat loss and evaluation of what the air handling device/furnace can put out (cfm) in the first place.

BTU transfered into the air stream is based on this simple formula. (Temp rise across the heat exchanger x cfm x 1.08) = btu into the airstream.

Obviously a hotter coil will transfer more btu's but also tightly limit the operating range of your storage or boiler. Running a gasser with no storage on a system that is strictly forced air in nature has been a poor application in my humble experience. Many times on a call for heat, the air handler will drain the btu's from the boiler creating a low temp condition that activates boiler protection before the fire can "respond" and drive heat back into the water. Meanwhile the fan blows cold air into your house which leads to very low WAF.

You might want to consider adding a few panel radiators to the system to augment the forced air side of things. I guarantee you would be amazed at the comfort level difference between rads and a forced air system.

 

[Sawyer]

Fan Coils, Heat Exchangers and Water Temperature......Oh My!! (with apologies to the Wizard of OZ people)........

There are indeed a host of variables that will ultimately determine the lowest temp you can run your storage at. These are impossible to determine here and can only be done with an accurate heat loss calc of the structure, a duct sizing/cfm calculation based on the heat loss and evaluation of what the air handling device/furnace can put out (cfm) in the first place.

BTU transfered into the air stream is based on this simple formula. (Temp rise across the heat exchanger x cfm x 1.08) = btu into the airstream.

Obviously a hotter coil will transfer more btu's but also tightly limit the operating range of your storage or boiler. Running a gasser with no storage on a system that is strictly forced air in nature has been a poor application in my humble experience. Many times on a call for heat, the air handler will drain the btu's from the boiler creating a low temp condition that activates boiler protection before the fire can "respond" and drive heat back into the water. Meanwhile the fan blows cold air into your house which leads to very low WAF.

You might want to consider adding a few panel radiators to the system to augment the forced air side of things. I guarantee you would be amazed at the comfort level difference between rads and a forced air system.

Am I misreading the specs or looking at the wrong panel radiators? It seemed the charts on the ones I was looking at (Myson Select Panel Radiator) started at a 70 degree temperature differential which would require 140 degree water for 70 degree room temps? Should I look at a different panel radiator?

 

[woodsmaster]

Fan Coils, Heat Exchangers and Water Temperature......Oh My!! (with apologies to the Wizard of OZ people)........

There are indeed a host of variables that will ultimately determine the lowest temp you can run your storage at. These are impossible to determine here and can only be done with an accurate heat loss calc of the structure, a duct sizing/cfm calculation based on the heat loss and evaluation of what the air handling device/furnace can put out (cfm) in the first place.

BTU transfered into the air stream is based on this simple formula. (Temp rise across the heat exchanger x cfm x 1.08) = btu into the airstream.

Obviously a hotter coil will transfer more btu's but also tightly limit the operating range of your storage or boiler. Running a gasser with no storage on a system that is strictly forced air in nature has been a poor application in my humble experience. Many times on a call for heat, the air handler will drain the btu's from the boiler creating a low temp condition that activates boiler protection before the fire can "respond" and drive heat back into the water. Meanwhile the fan blows cold air into your house which leads to very low WAF.

You might want to consider adding a few panel radiators to the system to augment the forced air side of things. I guarantee you would be amazed at the comfort level difference between rads and a forced air system.

Am I misreading the specs or looking at the wrong panel radiators? It seemed the charts on the ones I was looking at (Myson Select Panel Radiator) started at a 70 degree temperature differential which would require 140 degree water for 70 degree room temps? Should I look at a different panel radiator?

I believe 140 is the norm. oversize some to use cooler water.

 

[rpmm70]

So I guess an update is due, first off, I really appreciate all of the comments that have replied to this thread so far. This IS the best site. I have three new, 500 gallon propane tanks on their way to my shop. They will be installed in the shop vertically. And no, I did not pay new price for them. I paid scrap steel price because these tanks the welds on either an end bell or fitting was questionable by the manufacturer and they sell them for scrap (good for me!)

I just got off the phone from the individual I am going to by my boiler from. How does $6500.00 shipped sound for an EKO 60? This will be installed in the shop also.

For the initial install of the boiler, I will have to run a minimum of two furnaces with HX coils. One in the shop and one for the first floor of the house. Past practice has shown that an average of 73-74 *F first floor in the home yields roughly 67-68 *F upstairs temp. So I will run this until I can install a radiant system. I am not sure on how I can install a hx of 200%. The size of the plenum limits this, its 16 x 20, so I am guessing at roughly 100000btu. Just a rambling thought, what if someone installed two coils in series, one on top of another. I will not do this but could better transfer of heat be made...or a coil that is thicker than 3"

Pretty soon I am going to have to talk to u guys on what is the best for underground line installs. DIY or Tube in pipe