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Goose accessibility thread...

Post in 'DIY and General non-hearth advice' started by Gooserider, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. smokinj

    smokinj Minister of Fire

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    If you have mold growing I would gut the whole bathroom and start fresh. To me that is the easy way to do a bathroom.

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  2. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    Unless code requires it, I was hoping to leave the toilet in place.
    Other than that, we will nearly gut the bathroom.
  3. smokinj

    smokinj Minister of Fire

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    I would even take the toilet out that way the whole floor is the way you want it! I would have it all slope to the area where you get out of the shower with a drain right there....water proof the whole floor and up the sides, and you could use a power washer in there if need be. The shower could be just 3 walls water proof with shower pan and any water that might get out would be pick up by 2nd drain. wouldn't need curtain or anything to hold the water in at the bottom. Kinda like building two showers would be easy to keep clean.
  4. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    There would have to be some sort of slope toward the drain. If the floor is sloping the wrong way, you may have to build up the entire floor if you cannot simply drop the floor toward the drain. If you have to raise the floor, the toilet flange will need to be built up. I just got done re-tiling my bathroom floor and shower.

    The tiled shower walls need to have a waterproof membrane, especially around the cubby holes inset between the studs. I used Schluter KERDI. Each cubby will need preformed corners, both inside and outside corners. When installing the concrete backer board, make allowances for the additional layers of KERDI that overlap. I suggest you use 1/2" backer on most of the wall and 1/4" in and around the cubby which will give you 1/4" of wiggle room. You also need to leave room for corner molding to edge out the tile. You can also use KERDI for the shower pan. http://www.schluter.com/4625.aspx has all the materials and instructions.
  5. smokinj

    smokinj Minister of Fire

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    I would look at it as building two shower pans one in the shower and the rest of the floor you do the same thing why fight the water just let it fly! jmo
  6. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    I think I would like to start a separate thread about the build week-end.
    Discussion about the design should continue here.
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    Instead of adding wood blocking everywhere, you might consider lining the entire shower wall with 3/4" OSB and then 1/4" HardieBacker put on with modified thinset and their special screws. The OSB would be more dimensionally stable, add lots of strength to the wall should one lose their balance and fall against it, and allow you to drive screws anywhere.

    http://www.jameshardie.com/homeowner/products_backerboard_quarterInch.shtml
  8. Flatbedford

    Flatbedford Minister of Fire

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    That's what I was thinking too, except I was thinking 3/4 plywood. Probably only because I haven't used USB before. Does OSB hold screws as well as plywood? It would be nice to know that you have pretty much unlimited fastening on the wall.
  9. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    I like the idea if we have someone present who knows how to do that, and if this can work with having shelves (will they stick out of the vinyl or be embedded into the wall?).
  10. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    I have been reading online about shower surrounds.
    As usual, life is not simple.
    They vary in the shelves they offer.

    They can be made of plastic, acrylic, or vinyl.

    Would anyone like to offer an opinion about which is best to use?
  11. StackedLumber

    StackedLumber New Member

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    The other thing you could do, that may be slightly cheaper than 3/4" plywood is a product called CDX that's a subflooring grade plywood. Here it's around $24-25 per sheet, compared to $35/sheet of plywood. If you go w/ OSB, it should hold screws great. Honestly, though, I don't think you need to go a full 3/4" behind the hardie board. It may be a bit much, especially if you are putting up hardie board and tile on top of that. No more than 1/2" behind the hardieboard should suffice.

    When we redid our bathroom (well, I did some and a contractor did the rest) :) , I used that hardieboard stuff and I did like it. It's slightly more expensive than the traditional cement board backer (maybe a $1 per sheet more), but it cuts easier and overall is better to use, IMO. The preformed grid on it too makes tiling a snap. Most pro-tilers here also don't even use the special screws that they try to sell you. Most just go w/ a
    1"-1 1/4" galvinized roofing nail and they are much cheaper and do just as good of a job.

    One thing we did in an old lady's house that needed a sloped drain, is that we ran OSB under the tray and then ran mortar on top of that. Then we set the tray on the mortar and worked it so that it sloped ever so slightly towards the drain. The actual slope is less than you think. The mortar gives you a very solid base that will hold it well. The general contractor that redid our bathroom, did this with our big fiberglass tub.

    Just some thoughts. Hope Goose continues to get better.
  12. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    The tile guys may want to pull the toilet out temporarily even if it is going back in the same place. Makes it easier to work without obstacles.

    As for built-in shelves, I can understand where Goose might want to have some, but that will add time and may compromise the installation. They can also be water traps. A smooth wall is easier to keep clean and has no opportunity for mold pockets. My thought is that it's better to install some surface mount holders. We have stainless basket type holders in our shower. They drain completely without risk of mold build-up like there is with shelves. http://www.thehardwarehut.com/bath_baskets.php. If you go this route, be sure to put blocking in for this too.

    Also, take a picture and do a drawing with piping and blocking locations of each shower wall before they get covered. That will really help locate the blocking and studs behind the tile.
  13. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    This is going to be long and tricky to reply to, but I will try....

    BG posted some pictures of the front door space, which is up a step or two down that "tunnel" between the main house and the laundry room... To the left is the back side of the chimney, to the right are the washer and dryer, which is at the same level as the porch itself... The bushes that are in the picture are now gone. To do a ramp, I'm assuming we would need to come straight out, then either turn as soon as you clear the house, and go over the existing steps (and removing those railings) or go out past the steps into the yard and then turn, which would leave the steps accessible, but not really gain anything otherwise, and be a nuisance for snow clearing....

    On the other side, that porch collapsed, and has been removed, so all you have is that door into the laundry room in the middle of the wall about 4' up... You would have to come out about 10 feet to clear the garage, then turn to go down alongside the garage, and end up on unpaved ground somewheres.... Note that the door goes into the laundry room, so you'd have the same level change problem as coming in through the garage, with the added complication that the door is in the center of the space, instead of being at the end opposite the house like the garage is...

    The garage is two cars, as long as the cars are smallish, but is very full of cruft, which will be a challenge to deal with by other than me... I think that a lift is the best solution longish term, as it could replace the existing stairs with about the same footprint as the current staircase, and solve the problem of getting wood in, snow clearing, etc... However it may be easier to do that after the gummint inspector types have gone away, and put an outside ramp (which I think would be easiest via the front door) in for code reasons... I suspect that putting a ramp in the garage would be a problem because it would leave no space in the garage that wasn't part of the ramp...

    Head room in both the garage and laundry room is pretty good, plus there is an attic above both that has 0-6' plus in the garage and 0-4' or so in the laundry room... Raising the floor of the laundry room would not be terribly difficult except for needing to deal with gas and water plumbing that runs through it, and that sort of thing. Not sure about door widths, but I think both could be made wider w/o terrible problems. One ceiling limitation though, is that the rafters are either 2x6 or 2x8, which means that we might have strength concerns about attaching any heavy stuff to them....(I was told they should be considered to be "collar ties" and not try to store anything heavy in that attic.)

    I have a very nice MIG welder and an oxy-aceteline gas rig, but not sure how my skills would be from a wheelchair on building stuff, and as mentioned, the gummint inspectors would be a concern on any kind of lift that was intended for people...

    Not sure how it was done, but the pic of the existing sink that Mary-Anne posted is backwards left-right - in the old film days I'd have said the negative was flipped, but how does that happen digitally??? :-S

    My thought on the shelves is that between M-A and myself, we have lots of "lotions & potions" and so forth, which are currently an ongoing problem with the few existing shelves on the current fiberglass tub... more space would be a good thing (including for her razors which she currently stores on the shower curtain rail, where they fall off on me...) If they are recessed it is one less thing to have to work around while showering. However it falls more in the category of "strong want" rather than "absolute must" - keeping in mind that it wouldn't be hard to do while installing things, but would be very hard to retro-fit...

    I also am in favor of the idea of Kerdi or equivalent under all the tile work, with the idea of sloping the entire floor towards the shower drain....

    As far as the toilet goes - we had to pull it when we had the tiles put in the last time, but that was a job that didn't require a permit, so we were able to keep the toilet. In this case, I am assuming a permit would be required (if it isn't, then we shouldn't get one...) and my (possibly wrong) understanding of the rules is that while a toilet can be re-used on a small project, major renovations would require us to replace the existing nice (except for color) 5 gallon flush toilet w/ one of the new econo-clogger water saver models... I would just as soon keep the existing toilet if we can just for cost reasons, but code may require it be replaced...

    Gooserider
  14. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    I found some diagrams Goose had made, took the one of the main floor of the house and added names to the rooms.

    Stairs from the garage to the laundry go up.
    Stairs from the laundry to the living room go up.
    Stairs from the living room out the front door next to the laundry go down.
    There is a step from the kitchen to the back porch.
    The small bathroom is the one we want to make accessible.
    M.A. Office will likely become our bedroom.

    Tim has measured the length of the laundry and confirmed as I suspected, that there is no way to take a ramp from the door out of the garage, and go up to the living room. He also says the ceiling is too low to solve the problem just by raising the floor, but we might try to also raise the ceiling, but that is probably not our initial best solution.

    The initial best solution is apparently to make a ramp out the front door between the living room and the laundry, going out and to the left. Tim and Ed have measured and the ramp must go down a total of 60 inches. From having built a shorter ramp before, which took 2 week-ends, Ed has advised me to explore renting a ramp since it may not be a good idea to buy that much wood or spend that much time if we might move soon.

    The open spot between the kitchen and laundry used to be a porch, but it collapsed under snow, and Goose took the wood away. That is where I guessed we would put an elevator if we had one.

    Attached Files:

  15. Hunderliggur

    Hunderliggur Minister of Fire

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    Coming in late but my 2 cents worth anyway. It sounds like you have the bathroom well along. We used Kohler shower caddies in our tiled showers:

    "The low-profile Aluminum Shower Storage installs nearly flush to the shower wall and the narrow 5- by 60-inch façade lends itself to paired installations, either symmetrically on each side of the shower, or together on a single wall. KOHLER Aluminum Shower Storage can also be staggered vertically to accommodate users of different statures. The four unobtrusive glass-like shelves in each model create the look of an uninterrupted column and are removable for easy cleaning. The shelves include cutouts for convenient razor and wash cloth storage. Available in either Satin Silver or Matte Nickel finishes for beautiful coordination with other KOHLER showering components, the Aluminum Shower Storage is priced comparably to a typical shower caddie. A self-rimming installation is ideal for both professionals and do-it-yourselfers and is suitable for both new showers and retrofits. "

    They are nice units.

    For front access, I would recommend a temporary ramp. Yes it will cost in wood, but check with your local suppliers for discounts or donations. If you decide you are going to stay long term, I would suggest contacting a local landscape architect (you can probably find some donated help. My father is an architect and I can ask him for ideas. My mother (his wife) was wheelchair bound for decades so we have some ideas.) You could make a nice ramp in front and have radiant ice melt in the ramp for the winter. It can be landscaped around for a pleasing look. Think multi-level front yard, with the level being the rest areas needed for a wheelchair ramp. You may also be able to get an exterior electric lift (would need generator backup) but a government facility I work at put one in and thn replaced it a couple of years later with a ramp. Reliability was a big issue.

    Good luck and take care. Sorry I cat make it up there this spring.
  16. Hunderliggur

    Hunderliggur Minister of Fire

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    Still thinking - you can most likely incorporate some raised bed planting in a front walk system and also allow a door to be added to access through the laundry room. Something might be worked out to keep the ATV chair at that level and have another ramp system to the backyard..... The possibilities are endless. Of course, there is "Extreme Makeover" which really opens up the options.
  17. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    Any ideas you or your father would like to suggest would be welcome, short or long term.
    I am hoping there is a way we can avoid moving.

    Mary-Anne
  18. Hunderliggur

    Hunderliggur Minister of Fire

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    Looking at your floor plan, I would recommend taking out the wall that create the hall between the bath and the kitchen. It is probably not load bearing but Tim could check. If it is load bearing, it would be fairly straightforward to put a header (Double 2x12 or 2x10 depending on opening width) to handle the load. That would make it much easier for a wheelchair to get into the bathroom and bedrooms. You may also want to consider getting rid of the door on the bathroom closet or perhaps putting a lower cabinet with upper open shelves. I don't think Goose needs any extra doors.
  19. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I think the wall between the kitchen and hall is load bearing - I'd be surprised if it wasn't just as it sits on top of a similar wall in the basement that divides the basement into thirds, along with a big steel I-beam accross the basement main room. I agree with the idea of getting rid of extra doors as much as possible, though I think anything we design should be set up to have doors added easily by any future owners.

    Gooserider
  20. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Not to be a wet blanket, but looking at the bathroom plans, this is not ideal. There doesn't appear to be enough room to maneuver a wheelchair comfortably. Goose, have you shown these plans to anyone that works with making homes handicap accessible? I think it's possible, but it needs thought. From the looks of the bath space, it seems like you may need to think about removing closets to increase the bathroom footprint. My concern is that right now there does not appear to be room to easily rotate a wheelchair 360 in the space. That could be a real problem.

    This is just process thinking here, but maybe look at the closets becoming part of the bath space? If the shower moved into what is now MA's closet, then the toilet could be moved over and given more space. Otherwise access to the sink looks to be too cramped.
  21. tmhrrgn

    tmhrrgn New Member

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    Hi
    From talking with M-A and Goose today we are thinking on looking how much is it lease a metal ramp to get Goose into the house for the time being. This will give us more time to work on the bathroom and get Goose into the house for sometime so that Goose and M-A can see if they really want to stay in the house or look for something that can be made more accessable and if they decide to stay then we can do the ramp on the front door. Also we need to do the bathroom and if they do decide to sell they most likely break even with a new bathroom. The ramp will cost about $2000 in lumber alone and if they decide to relocate then that most likely add to the market value.

    Tim
  22. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    Given the length of run required for a ramp with that much vertical rise, if you're considering rental you may as well consider renting a vertical lift.
  23. stee6043

    stee6043 Minister of Fire

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    If you guys end up deciding on a metal ramp something similar to the link below be sure to post the cost of the rental/purchase before you buy. I purchase significant amounts of industrial catwalk quite regularly. I suspect the equipment I work with would be substantially less expensive than buying it through a medical source. Judging by the photo in the link below I think the only real change would need to be swapping out the standard bar grating surface for something more smooth such as perforated or expanded metal. Add a small ramp at each end and presto....a ramp.


    http://www.handiramp.com/Galvanized.html
  24. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Not to add to BG's wet blanket, but I can't help but think that maybe more overall planning needs to be done before anything is actually done!
    (even if that entails moving dates)....

    In my relatively vast contracting experience, nothing is as important as having plans 100% set AND having ALL materials on the job before anything starts. It might seem as if the Home Depot and other places are close by, but you'll likely spend a good part of the working day going back and forth for the materials.

    Well, take this advice for what it is worth. I'm not sure who is doing the overall planning, but if they are experienced in such matters, they already know this.

    As Perot said. measure twice, cut once!
  25. mgwmgw

    mgwmgw New Member

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    About the ramps, I looked up some ramp rental companies yesterday and none of them are open on week-ends so I plan to call them tomorrow.

    About the plans for the bathroom - what I had *thought* we were going to do was
    1. replace the sink with an accessible sink and remove the closet underneath the sink so Goose can get his knees there, using a white Kohler sink that sticks out of the front of the counter,
    2. remove the bathtub
    3. replace the moldy part of the wall and ceiling above the bathtub
    4. tile where the shower is, including the ceiling (or use a combination of a shower surround and tile, but I prefer just tile)
    5. redo the floor so water drains into the shower drain
    6. put up a weighted curtain along the edge of the shower.

    I assumed we would leave the toilet where it is, or remove it and put it back in the same place.
    I assumed we would leave the other closet in the bathroom where it is.
    I assumed we would remove the shelves next to the bathtub in order to have 29 inches in front of the toilet, and we have that much room but not much more.

    I have identified a sink available on ebay, which I need to bid on today if I want it. I plan to do this. I will resell it if I have to.

    I have identified a variety of formica which is kept in stock at Home Depot. Butter Rum is the name. I have a sample of it in the car which I need to try against the other colors but I think it should work on the counter next to the sink.

    I have called the people who put in the bathroom floor and they should tell me whether the same tiles as we had before are still available some time tomorrow. I have some other inexpensive sample tiles from the same place on the bathroom floor at the moment, which can be back up choices if that does not work out.

    I have identified the part of town government I must talk to in order to get permits, but not gotten them yet. I am not clear whether redoing the bathroom needs a permit if that is all the construction we do.

    The tile store will lay the tiles for money if our team does not know how. If we do that, then I will take advice from the tile store about backing and blocking, but am incline to have a layer of something rather than distinct blocks.

    If we do not find a suitable shower surround with shelves, I plan to use the wire shelves from the URL posted earlier, but I do not plan to try to install that in the initial week-end, since we can live without them and Goose might have opinions on what shelf and where. I also do not plan to install the grab bars this week-end, but I might buy them if it is clear what we want. I assume Goose and I can do this after he comes home.

    Tim and Ed have a shower chair we can use, so I do not plan to try to install a wall-mounted shower chair right away. We may do that later.

    If our team lays the tiles then we would need someone present who knows what to use as backing or blocking. Nobody has said they were ready to do that yet.

    Whether the result is perfectly ADA compliant is not essential. Whether this is accessible enough for Goose to use matters a lot, and I would appreciate feedback from people who have personal experience with family members in wheelchairs about that question.

    Is it optimal? No. Is it possible? I think so. Is it good enough? Not sure yet.

    Thoughts?

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