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Got my new toy and now dissapointed!

Post in 'The Gear' started by iceman, Sep 8, 2009.

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  1. Stevebass4

    Stevebass4 Minister of Fire

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    why run it at full throttle anyway? i always run mine at 1/2 - does it make a difference except for speed?

    btw i do all my spiting by myself so even at 1/2 throttle it's fast enough

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  2. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    i will try to get some video....
    goose .... i was thinking something similiar to what you said.. however the tech called back and said he would find a service center..... and to take it there and they will go through it and replace the engine if need be ... but they wanna see what/where something went wrong because its a new engine on their machine.
    the manager in tsc offered me the 28 ton for 1350 but after reading what goose said in another thread about the pressure gauge and needing only 20 tons, i dont want to spend the extra 300 for nothing
  3. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    not sure if it would or not.... i just wanna make sure my new toy is ok
    with all the splitters i have rented, used, borrowed this one is the loudest,and the vibrating exceeds the others.... but if it counts this is also the smallest ... i have used cub cadet (from depot) mtd (from depot) iron oak (rental) and some other one tht was a rental... 2 had briggs and 3 had hondas... they werent quite, but they werent this loud either and they def didnt vibrate like this ..... and who knows it could just be me! i just dont want "other" things to start going wrong next year and someone tells me that this wasnt right from the start
  4. Stevebass4

    Stevebass4 Minister of Fire

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    certainly understand your concern - it's new and it should be perfect

    just wondering about the full throttle when splitting
  5. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    hopefully i wont have to go full.... i just thought it was funny going from no vibration at half to so much at full... and if its just me at least i will know
    but i a actually starting to like it because it is so light and easy to move around! compared to others
  6. brad068

    brad068 Feeling the Heat

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    "to much torque" I got to laugh! What, is it an old Rumply oil pull!?

    First thing I would do if that was at my shop is by sound I can tell you if the engine is exceeding the recommended rpms. Maybe the governor isn't working or is not set correctly. Most small engines are designed at full throttle to run from 3200 to 3600 rpm and when they exceed this they will vibrate.
    You can isolate the engine by loosening the love joy coupling and slide it apart. run the engine and see if the vibration is still there.

    The lct engines that I've had a chance to work on do seem to be a good engine. Even the Harbor freight ones seem good. They are both china built but the HF ones look as if they are exact copies of hondas. I have had good luck with both models.
  7. kevin j

    kevin j Minister of Fire

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    I don't want to sound critical or know it all, but I am an engineer for 40 years and I think you are getting major bs from the rep. maybe not willful, just ignorance or he is reading the script. Or, the CSR may be used to dealing with people who never operate power equipment and think anything that makes more noise or vibration than their refridgerator is a problem. He may not realize that you seem to be pretty mechanically minded and if you think there is an issue it may be more serous than he envisions. Just trying to give him the benefit of doubt anyway.

    -Is the pump mounted with a rigid ball housing direct to the motor? then 'too much torque' is bs, as the only torque reaction is through the rigid bellhousing between the two. The unit should then float in space with NO reaction from too much torque.

    -Rigid mounting anchors the engine more solidly, but what he is describing on why they don't use AV mounts is also bs I think. Mainly it is not done for cost reasons, because the vibration levels are tolerable in the design without AV. This one apparently is not. So the issue isn't lack of AV, but excessive vibration.

    -single cylinder engines are inherently imbalanced either up and down or front to rear. Balancing the crank or piston just moves it from one plane to the other, unless some sourt of counterbalance weight is added. So are you expecting too much? That you have used other machines tells me not, that your read of too much vibration is accurate.

    -"don't run it full rpm"..... it should perform at its maximum design potential or send it back. I would not buy a new truck only to be told 'don't drive it over 45 mph then it won't vibrate so much.......' I'd want the front end fixed or a new truck.

    -My suggestion of the grainger mounts was as an improvement to an already working good design, not intended as a band aid for a mfr screw up. I would not start any rubber mounts or testing until the unit is shown to be oeprating correctly. AV mounts should take out the last 20% of the vibrations, not attempt to take out the first 50% :)

    I'd get it back to the service center. Then have them isolate the coupling and run the engine alone, but with pump and adaptor still in place. It could be a bent engine crank, bad bell housing that misaligns pump and engine shafts, bent pump shaft, or high rpm as suggested.

    You are spending good money, you have a right to a serviceable product. You can't expect a TW6 for $1500, but you should get a good machine. You should not be getting problems right out of the box. problems only get more expensive to fix.

    May be a minor problem, but it really bugs me to have a CSR blow off customer concerns so they go off in defeat and keep using the bad product. so maybe I am overly biased with snap negative judgment here......


    kcj
  8. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    It makes a difference for speed and power... You don't have to run full throttle, but you should, and expect some level of problems if you don't...

    1. The pump will only put out its rated volume if it is spun at the speed that rating was made at - namely full throttle on the standard OPE engine, or about 3600 RPM. Run slower, the pump will put out less volume and give you longer cycle times - this might not be an issue for you, but it is going to be for someone trying to make serious production.

    2. Regardless of how fast the pump is turning, it STILL requires 2hp of engine power for each GPM of output when you get into the low-volume / high pressure mode, where the output shifts to about 1/4 the rated volume, but the pressure goes to the max, ~3,000psi... If you don't give it this power you will stall on the gnarly rounds that require higher than usual tonnage, or if you hit the end of the cylinder and don't back off the lever fast enough...
    However, the engines on a splitter won't make their rated hp unless run at full throttle... Most rounds it won't make much difference, there are few that will really push the pressure, but the gnarly jobs will stall you out...

    Gooserider
  9. savageactor7

    savageactor7 Minister of Fire

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    Ice did you put a wrench on the engine mounts and try to tighten them up? With the stuff they put out today that can happen.

    Also I agree with the others that question the need for high rpm's. We have a 5hp engine on the splitter and it has always run just a little higher than an idle speed. Did you try running the splitter with lower engine rpm's to see if it splits OK? In the greater scheme of things the pump does 90% of the work on a splitter so you really don't need high HP or rpm's.
  10. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    Good morning, perhaps I can help shed some light on the situation here. The 25 ton unit you purchased from TSC is a special, limited build unit. Only a few of these units were built and sold to TSC. All of TSC standard models have either a Briggs or Honda motor on them. The Loncin engine is an engine SpeeCo uses on our 15 ton SpeeCo brand woodsplitter which is sold by some other farm stores who carry our products. Some vibration on any log splitter engine is normal, however there is always a possibility of some type of engine malfunction. I would check the bolts on the engine which hold down the gas tank, air filter, and the motor mounts and tighten them all down if any are loose. Then, run a few cords throught the unit and check for tightness again. If any have become loose after only a few hours, then there could be an engine problem. SpeeCo would be happy to have the unit checked for problems if they persist. If this is necessary, contact the TsC manager and ask where the service center is for that store.

    Thanks,
    SpeeCo-tech
  11. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    p.s. Also, please feel free to call me here at SpeeCo. I can be reached @303-279-5544 ext. 147 I will do everything I can to resolve the issue. If there is a defect/warranty problem, we will take care of it for you.

    Thanks again!
  12. Stevebass4

    Stevebass4 Minister of Fire

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    thanks for the post goose!!
  13. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    update... the speeco tech are really nice ... much kudos to you guys.. the tsc manager is willing to replace it... but i asked a girl in the store if she could find one and she said they werent getting anymore! so i called the repair center and those guys will take a look on tues... at this point i might just take the offer and get the 28 ton..... i dont really understand this splitter.. (i am not a professional) but the filter is on the hp side and all the huskees are on the low pressure... this was some new design and i got an engine from a smaller splitter? but yet this is supposed to be more powerful than a 22 ton which is more powerful than the splitter my engine came from??(hope you understand that!) maybe its just me and this small engine is just working very hard to keep up! dunno but just because of the reputation of speeco and the fact they do seem very nice and honest... i am going to try to work this out and stay with huskee or speeco
  14. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa Minister of Fire

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    Not quite. Most splitters have the filter on the return line which is low pressure but your Spee Co made splitter has it on the intake (no pressure) suction side.
  15. struggle

    struggle Minister of Fire

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    I have an older Huskee 20 ton model that uses a cylinder set that is much like yours but the pump is mounted below the engine (5.5hp briggs) It rattles like mad if at full throttle and no load on the engine. The main cylinder (ram) has to float somewhat and since the unit pivots for horizontal mode you have a lot of parts that are not machine fitted so it is going to rattle some without a load on it.

    I always set mine down on the leg disconnect from my tow vehicle. If you split with it attached to the your hitch you just added one more place for a rattle to come from.

    Not saying you do not have problem but these things are not exactly the most refined machines.

    I have replaced my engine cover twice now from it cracking to which I am assuming is from vibration. The last time I welded it with extra metal on it and it has held. Splitter is around 5-6 years old maybe even older. I really do not remember exactly when I bought it. Motor burns no oil when on straight 30 weight. I do not baby it at all. I just let run wide open after it is warmed up and it has yet to fail. It seems like it should from the things that rattle but it just keeps splitting cord after cord.

    I kind of think you are over thinking this a little, but I could be entirely wrong.

    My filter is on the suction side of the pump as well. right off the tank. The filters would blow apart if they were on a pressure side.
  16. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    \


    Thanks thats good to know ... i wathinking maybe its just me but when comparing it to others machines and peoples statements i was/ am unsure.,,, but i am not a professional
  17. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    Gooserider, as always you have some great comments to add to the thread. In response to your concern about the design, our splitters that are designed to run with the oil filter on the suction line, do not cavitate. We designed the filter and filter base to allow enough fluid through so as not to stres the pump or otherwise cavitate the fluid. If the fluid were cavitating, you would notice a loss of performance as well as excess heat and foam in the tank when you open the fill cap. We recently changed our design on the Huskee models. On the newer Huskee models, the filter has been moved and the filter base setup and filter have been adjusted accordingly to allow for a diff. pressure and different flow rate. There is a check vale inside the filter bases which allows fluid to bypass the filter in periods of extremely high flow rate, or rushes of fluid (when the valve returns to the neutral positon). These units use a different style filter base when attached to the supply side which allows fluid pass with out cavitation. I hope this clears things up a bit.
  18. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    Iceman, I hope you have already worked things out with your splitter. Again, feel free to call us here at Speeco if you havent and we will help resolve the issue. In response to your question, power on a log splitter is determined by the psi out put of the pump and the size of the hydraulic cylinder. While there is a minimum h.p. requirement for pumps (1/2 horsepower for every galllon per minute of flow). All of our splitter engines meet or exceed those rquirements. The loncin engine on your unit and the briggs motor on the 22 ton Huskee both are 6.5 h.p. which is adequate for the pump they both use. You could put a 30 h.p. engine on your splitter and it would not make it any more powerful than the 6.5 h.p. unless you change the pump or cylinder.
  19. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I will admit that I'm not an engineer, but when I was looking into making my splitter purchase, and at least briefly considering trying to build my own, I read a great deal on the general principles of Hydraulic design. Everything I found seemed to say that suction side filtering was a bad idea, that AT BEST was something that could be "gotten away with" but that could easily cause problems... For one example, see the stuff written by Brendan Casey at Hydraulic Supermarket.com By doing return side filtering on my splitter, I feel that I have a more reliable system that is less likely to have any problems. Obviously Huskee appears to get away with suction side filtering, but that does not make me feel that it is a wise design choice.

    Gooserider
  20. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    There are two schools of thought. With supply most of the fluid gets filtered before it goes throught the pump, valve, cylinder etc. therefore ensuring that no contaminants get through to those components. While this is effective, it can also shorten the life of the pump because it does have to work a bit harder. Also, at times the flow rate is so high that some of the fluid needs to bypass through a check valve which is built in to the filter base. The check valve opening keeps the fluid from cavitating. With the filter base on the return side, it doesn't matter so much if the fluid cavitates because it has time to settle down in the reservoir tank and cool off. The disadvantage is that the fluid passes through the hydraulic components before filtration happens. If something foreign, dirt, metal particulates, etc. got in your tank it could potentially damge cylinder seals, pump gears, etc.
  21. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    The 28 and 34 ton the filter has been changed to the return side??? or am i reading this wrong? please excuse me
  22. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    On the 22, 28, and 35 ton Huskee models it has been changed, yes.
  23. kgreer

    kgreer New Member

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    Yes, on the 22, 28, and 35 ton units it is. They have been that way since last fall.
  24. m0jumb0

    m0jumb0 New Member

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    On my Huskee 22 ton purchased last month it's on the return side... I remember noting that when I was looking the unit over thinking it didn't make much sense to filter the fluid after it went through all the stuff you're presumably trying to protect. Though, after reading this thread I can see the reason why it's done this way.
  25. iceman

    iceman Minister of Fire

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    ok i am confused now... the newer models huskee has the filter now on the return side? so does this mean that there is some validity to what goose was saying? (that it is better to have them on the return side) not trying to be an @@$ but if what you described earlier, why would you change over if what you were doing is ok??
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