Green Seaton - Keep the creative juices flowing

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Sparke - observation since installing your top refractory?

General questions . . .

Whats everyone think about making the entire smoke path enclosed in refractory? This will be hard to describe . . .at the back of the original refractory, make a box which contains the HX and smoke path, then comes across the top of the horizontal HX tubes. One problem would be cleaning the HX. What about putting steel scrapers on a pivot, so that an external handle could be moved to actuate the scraping action. Of course, another problem of a completely enclosed refractory would be cleaning out in the back.

To cover the new style refractory, use Jess' panelized insulation separated by an air gap from the refractory.

Oh, and to back up the bus a bit . . . while reforming my skins it occurred to me . . . is there a PATTERN to where they rust through? I ask because, the side insulation actually contacts the side of the refractory. But behind the refractory (smoke path area) the insulation is directly exposed to the products of combustion. Is there a pattern to where we could say which area rusts worst?

Jimbo

 

[sparke]

Jimbo, I have not fired up the beast yet. I have had 3 very small fires to try and cure new refractory slowly. I am currently working on new storage tank so it will be a few weeks before I fire up the ole girl for real. I will keep all of you posted on my results good, bad , or indifferent. I also have thought of many different refractory schemes. I do believe these units could be even more efficient with a longer flame path and secondary air at the top. I would like to bury the hex in refractory so you would never have to clean it but we know that wont work because of expansion. I think I am done tinkering with mine, I dont want to put any more money into it. I would like to do something with the side like Jesse did to make cleaning the hex a much easier job... Did I mention I am done tinkering with my unit?

 

[Trzebs13]

It will be interesting to see what kind of results Jesse gets. But in all reality we probably won't know for some time. I do believe he did have the dripping problems like many of us do. So that he'll be able to see right away. I did line the inside of the back with another layer of insulation and had some plates sheared up to fit and line the back chamber. Not welded just fitted. (Looks like I fit it with a chain saw compaired to what we saw Jesse do) LOL But I have noticed that it did drip on the first fire but hasen't since. And the heat demand has been very low, was in idle mode all day today. But I did make up a drip collection system up any ways

I'm wondering what the difference would be with the sealed metal insulation system vs refractory? It most definatly would hold more heat then the steel would.

I've often thought of some kind of scraper that you could just push and pull to clean it. But the bend is a problem. A cable system would not be that hard but, to hold up to the heat would be. Or have one that does the vertical and another that does the horizontal and let the bend fend for it self.

 

[bigburner]

the changes I would make in these units would be a hinged panel for the top, using insulated type refractory/rock wool insulation. this makes the install a little more difficult because of clearance to other piping etc. should be able to open it like the hood of a car, hinged in the front would allow the back area to be cleaned [vertical area] The condensation,if not coming from HX has to be coming from the air inlets, if any thing was to be routed threw refractory or near it, air might be the choice to help super heat it. a longer path to the combustion chamber with a rise in velocity???

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

I've often thought of some kind of scraper that you could just push and pull to clean it. But the bend is a problem. A cable system would not be that hard but, to hold up to the heat would be. Or have one that does the vertical and another that does the horizontal and let the bend fend for it self.

That's what I was picturing.

the changes I would make in these units would be a hinged panel for the top, using insulated type refractory/rock wool insulation. this makes the install a little more difficult because of clearance to other piping etc. should be able to open it like the hood of a car, hinged in the front would allow the back area to be cleaned [vertical area]

I have been spending too much time thinking about this lately, but I was thinking along those lines too.

Make the primary CC, secondary CC, entire exhaust path and HX completly enclosed in refractory, Then leave say an 3" air gap, then make SS 'doors' (say 3" insulation sandwich) that open up on hinges. The access door on the left side rear would expose the section of refractory where the HX tubes are vertical. Why not make a tapered fit refractory 'plug' which could then be pulled out exposing the vertical tubes for cleaning?

Similarly, what about a similar 'plug at the bottom of the refractory near the exhaust exit, to allow for creosote/ash removal?

Jimbo

 

[Trzebs13]

Similarly, what about a similar 'plug at the bottom of the refractory near the exhaust exit, to allow for creosote/ash removal?

Jimbo

I really like the door idea, wish that had come would up earlier I probably would have done that. Wondering why you would want 2 doors on the side and not just one big one all the way down? I never really gave it much thought when I cut mine.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

I did two access panels because I am just doing panels this year, not doors. If they were hinged doors I agree, I'd want one.

Nutha' thing I've been wondering about but just can't come up with . . . a smoke bypass. Seems if there was a bypass low on the back refractory wall, plus a suction fan, that would cut way down on the smoke while loading.

Jimbo

 

[Trzebs13]

I did this earlier in while I had it torn apart. I really don't have that much smoke that comes out while loading. But it was easy enough to try.


I always try to load it when the intake is open. And not much but coals in the box. And then crack the door slightly. Then reach for my first arm load of wood and open the door slowly and throw it in. I leave the door open and fill the rest of the way. One idea that my Dad had was to put a blower blowing into the room. The idea being that if you took out side air and kind of pressurized the room that the additional air would be forced into the door and out up chimney. Instead of with an exhaust fan kind of sucking air out of the door.

 

[roaring fire]

:roll: If you put that smoke flashing on a pivot or hinge, it wouldn,t
restrict the size of your wood when loading. The ability of those boilers to handle
big rounds is a significient bonus
Dan ;-)

 

[Trzebs13]

Kind of like this? I drilled 1/2" holes in the door opening and the flap is bolted to 2 pins that slide into those holes. I'm to sure this is a cure I would be couris to put some kind of fan system to try to suck out the smoke.


Jimbo, you had mentined some kind of smoke bypass, What if you were to put another chimney exhaust port more twards the top of the secondary chamber with a damper. Only open it while loading. I think that one of the problems with this is that the exaust is on the bottom of the unit. And when you open the door now the door is the highest most spot for the smoke to go out.

And there is plenty of other threads to debate the rounds vs splits.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

. . .And there is plenty of other threads to debate the rounds vs splits.

Now that thar, as they say, that's funny :lol:

What if you were to put another chimney exhaust port more twards the top of the secondary chamber with a damper. Only open it while loading. I think that one of the problems with this is that the exaust is on the bottom of the unit. And when you open the door now the door is the highest most spot for the smoke to go out.

I basically agree. I wonder about moving the bypass exit point to just in front of the baffle in the back refractory wall.

I wonder if anyone will recognize these units after we get done re-engineering them. LOL, we'll prolly find out there was a good reason they didn't incorporate our ideas!

 

[Trzebs13]

OK let me have it. Will this work. If not why??


Smoke Reduction, Suction, apperatice improvement idea take 1
.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Your picture brings up two questions . . .

If we enclose the exhaust path completely in refractory, how do we do the bypass at the top?

GW's don't come with ash pans . . . do the Seatons have holes in the refractory for ash to go down through?

Jimbo

 

[Trzebs13]

Your picture brings up two questions . . .

If we enclose the exhaust path completely in refractory, how do we do the bypass at the top?

GW's don't come with ash pans . . . do the Seatons have holes in the refractory for ash to go down through?

Jimbo

1- I'm thinking that the refractory is above the HX with the tubes exposed. More on Sparke's idea.

2- Not sure about the GW or Steaton, this is a drawing from the Greenfire and yes it does have an ash pan. There is a thick metal grate about 8"x8" in the bottom. That the ashes fall threw and enter the ash pan.

 

[sparke]

Mark from Greenfire had built some units with the bypass. I used to have pics of them. I searched all my pc's and could not find them : ( Very similar to Trezb's drawing.

 

[mole]

I think you guys are on to something with the smoke bypass idea. I'll bet it would be real good for getting the fires started as well as opening the door to refuel.

 

[Trzebs13]

Sparke, Do you know if he had sucess with it? It makes me a little worried to go ahead with it if he chose not to stick with it. But, as we all know they are most worried about the price point that they can sell these units for.

I really don't see why it wouldn't work thou. And with my unit, the Top Back is a seperate panel already. All I would have to do is shear up a plate, cut a hole in it, and would probably only use single wall, at least to test it. And if it doesent work put the original panel back on.