Nov 3rd meeting on proposed regs. would appreciate any input from experienced meeting attenders anywhere as to what the board of health should hear from me. I operate an E-classic. other than the EPA testing does anyone know if there have been studies yet on the new units out there. some of the proposed regs. are pretty strict in my opinion . thank you
greenfield massachusetts board of health meeting on OWB
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I don't have any particular expertise with Greenfields BOH, but it seems you should try and educate the folks on the BOH about what they should be regulating, rather than try to argue that no boilers need to be regulated.
We have no restrictions in my town (also in Mass), but I could get behind supporting common-sense rules that don't simply outlaw wood boilers, or outdoor wood boilers, but instead regulate how much smoke they can give off, setbacks from neighbors etc. A blanket ban would be the worst way to go, imo.
We have no restrictions in my town (also in Mass), but I could get behind supporting common-sense rules that don't simply outlaw wood boilers, or outdoor wood boilers, but instead regulate how much smoke they can give off, setbacks from neighbors etc. A blanket ban would be the worst way to go, imo.
sdrobertson
Minister of Fire
If you have a E-Classic give Central Boiler a call first thing Monday morning and they might be able to fax somethings to you for the meeting. I'd bypass the dealer and go directly with the factory. Its worth a shot as they have a vested interest in any outdoor regulations.
The problems with non gasification OWB's are very easy to see. They are everywhere.
Offer the members of the board and attendants of the meeting an informational demonstration. I would suggest to stay away from brand selling but an educational demo might go a long way in showing and educating them to the advantages of a gasification system.
Offer the members of the board and attendants of the meeting an informational demonstration. I would suggest to stay away from brand selling but an educational demo might go a long way in showing and educating them to the advantages of a gasification system.
I have been a wood burner for many years. I recently bought an E-classic and have been paying attention to smoke from various sources. My unit gives off far less smoke than most any other appliance or chimney that I see running on a daily basis. As has been said on here many times, it is all in how it is used. (that goes for pretty much anything). I have been very happy with my unit and the amount of smoke generated. When comparing the amount of BTU's generated by my unit and what it is heating, (entire house and DHW), vs. woodstoves heating parts of a house, there is no comparison on the amount of smoke per unit.
Just my thoughts on it.........
Just my thoughts on it.........
I know and agree the ONLY potential problem is smoke and i agree and am going to suggest they modify the proposed regulations to say wood burning appliances. that would put everyone equal. Maybe even suggest smoke regulations only as i drive by burger king at lunch hour and watch their cooking spew smoke and drop to ground level. thanks so far and will call central directly.
Nofossil
Moderator Emeritus
Regulations based on the amount of smoke make the most sense from a technical point of view, but would be impossible for any smaller municipality to enforce. I'm envisioning inspectors climbing onto people's roofs to measure particulate grams per hour - not happening. It also would need to be measured over some prolonged period. My gasification boiler smokes heavily for five minutes almost every day when I'm starting it. Emissions are zero or near zero the other 23 hours and 55 minutes.
No small town can realistically hope to enforce a technical emissions-based ban. The simplest approach is an actual or at least virtual ban on an easily defined class of devices that encompasses the worst offenders.
As much as OWB advocates will argue that indoor woodstoves can pollute more than properly operated OWBs, there's no question at all that if you collected the worst offenders in any community, virtually all of them would be OWBs. Anyone who drives through any town with a poorly operated OWB has seen this.
The challenge is to make sure that the folks involved in drafting the policy and/or regulations understand that gasification is a very important technical difference between devices, and that some devices that look like traditional OWBs are much cleaner as a result. I agree that blanket bans are a poor solution, but at least any such ban should include exemptions for devices that are cleaner by design.
I've toyed with the model of appointing a 'smoke catcher' who would operate like a dog catcher, responding to complaints and investigating. Perhaps educating people who don't know any better, and stopping egregiously bad operating practices. This position would have to be backed up with some regulatory clout, though, or any attempt to actually shut down a bad system could end up in court forever.
No small town can realistically hope to enforce a technical emissions-based ban. The simplest approach is an actual or at least virtual ban on an easily defined class of devices that encompasses the worst offenders.
As much as OWB advocates will argue that indoor woodstoves can pollute more than properly operated OWBs, there's no question at all that if you collected the worst offenders in any community, virtually all of them would be OWBs. Anyone who drives through any town with a poorly operated OWB has seen this.
The challenge is to make sure that the folks involved in drafting the policy and/or regulations understand that gasification is a very important technical difference between devices, and that some devices that look like traditional OWBs are much cleaner as a result. I agree that blanket bans are a poor solution, but at least any such ban should include exemptions for devices that are cleaner by design.
I've toyed with the model of appointing a 'smoke catcher' who would operate like a dog catcher, responding to complaints and investigating. Perhaps educating people who don't know any better, and stopping egregiously bad operating practices. This position would have to be backed up with some regulatory clout, though, or any attempt to actually shut down a bad system could end up in court forever.
You may also need to BOH to clarify what defines an "outdoor wood boiler". If I installed a clean-burning gasification boiler (i.e. my tarm), in a little 8x8 woodshed, would be it outlawed as an OWB? What if I installed a smoky class OWB, but put it inside another structure? is it now an OWB or an indoor boiler? What if it was not inside a structure, but just under a roof? etc...
I think if you try to ask questions like this you may naturally guide the discussion to what it is exactly they are trying to prevent, not arbitrary rule with so many loopholes that they do no good.
I think if you try to ask questions like this you may naturally guide the discussion to what it is exactly they are trying to prevent, not arbitrary rule with so many loopholes that they do no good.
FrankMA
Member
I have a friend whose neighbor uses an OWB and upset the whole neighborhood. This guy was burning everything he could get his hands on including trash and used pressure treated lumber. The thing was an absolute smoke dragon and really got everybody wound up.
It's people like this that create problems for those who are doing the "right thing". Like a previous post said, if used properly it only smokes heavy for a few minutes and then it burns fairly clean.
Good luck with your meeting.
It's people like this that create problems for those who are doing the "right thing". Like a previous post said, if used properly it only smokes heavy for a few minutes and then it burns fairly clean.
Good luck with your meeting.
woodsy said:
What ended up happening? I know in small towns like I live, with an almost completely volunteer run town govt, it gets very hard (and expensive) to force a non-cooperative person to "do the right thing". Just curious how it was resolved in your town.
I am dead against all regulations of private individuals, as is well known on this board. But, I think if regulations are going to be made, they need to be on a "complaints" basis. My outdoor gasifier smokes terrible for about 30 seconds on initial start up, then clears right out. I only burn wood or newspaper in it.
I think there needs to be setup a complaints area where neighbors can complain. Then, have a specific person or set of persons (OWB dealers come to mind) that can go out the the person's house and tell them that a complaint has been lodged and that they need to clean up there act. If the person expresses that they don't know what to do, then the gov't individual should be qualified and knowledgeable enough to show them ways to make their OWB's burn reasonably clean, such as dry wood, no garbage, etc..... This individual could throw in the fact that following these rules not only will make their neighbors happier, but also extend the life of their boiler. I also think that smoke regs should be set so that a "properly" operated OWB will not be outlawed... AKA: Neighbor's have to put up with it. We have neighbors all around us that have OWB's (Heatmor's and one other one that I don't know the Manufacturer of) and their burners do put out smoke, but visible smoke emissions never even leave their yard...
Then, if the individual doesn't clean up their act within 30 days, then you'd have to send the police out to shut down the system. By giving the person 30 days, they can try different things (like getting some drier wood, lining with firebrick, etc) to clean things up and not have to part with a substantial investment.
Once again, I don't agree with any of this, but if it has to be, I think this is the way it needs to be. I also think that it should apply to everything, indoor, outdoor, boiler, stove, or furnace........ Not pick on any particular product. And I DO NOT think that certs like EPA certs should be required, as some home-made contraptions burn very clean. Look at my stove. There's no way on earth that I can afford $60,000 to get my stove "certified" just to make some town yokel happy.
I think there needs to be setup a complaints area where neighbors can complain. Then, have a specific person or set of persons (OWB dealers come to mind) that can go out the the person's house and tell them that a complaint has been lodged and that they need to clean up there act. If the person expresses that they don't know what to do, then the gov't individual should be qualified and knowledgeable enough to show them ways to make their OWB's burn reasonably clean, such as dry wood, no garbage, etc..... This individual could throw in the fact that following these rules not only will make their neighbors happier, but also extend the life of their boiler. I also think that smoke regs should be set so that a "properly" operated OWB will not be outlawed... AKA: Neighbor's have to put up with it. We have neighbors all around us that have OWB's (Heatmor's and one other one that I don't know the Manufacturer of) and their burners do put out smoke, but visible smoke emissions never even leave their yard...
Then, if the individual doesn't clean up their act within 30 days, then you'd have to send the police out to shut down the system. By giving the person 30 days, they can try different things (like getting some drier wood, lining with firebrick, etc) to clean things up and not have to part with a substantial investment.
Once again, I don't agree with any of this, but if it has to be, I think this is the way it needs to be. I also think that it should apply to everything, indoor, outdoor, boiler, stove, or furnace........ Not pick on any particular product. And I DO NOT think that certs like EPA certs should be required, as some home-made contraptions burn very clean. Look at my stove. There's no way on earth that I can afford $60,000 to get my stove "certified" just to make some town yokel happy.
I see small towns doing outright bans on any device not already regulated or exempted by the EPA currently. That may be the easiest and most affordable way for small communities to handle it. Then wait for the EPA to issue the regs and then follow their lead. Just a guess. Of course small towns can't do testing because of the expense. My small town is worried about the price of salt for winter roads, mush less scientific testing. My town has not yet issued a decision on OWBs as of yet.
I think the EPA regulation for wood stoves is a maximum of 4 grams of particulate per hour output (or close to that). I would assume the EPA is heading for a similar type regulation for OWB, one based on particulate emission.
With the election on Tuesday it is looking like we will see an new EPA chief come January and that might mean a much more pro-active agency, so things may change quicker than they have until now.
I think the EPA regulation for wood stoves is a maximum of 4 grams of particulate per hour output (or close to that). I would assume the EPA is heading for a similar type regulation for OWB, one based on particulate emission.
With the election on Tuesday it is looking like we will see an new EPA chief come January and that might mean a much more pro-active agency, so things may change quicker than they have until now.
I am actually very deeply involved in my town govt - I think it might be wise to consider being pro-active in this regard, i.e. be the first out of the gate with regulations that are common sense even before there is a big problem. It might be easier to put in some easy-to-live-with policies while there is no big public outcry, to fend-off a more knee-jerk reaction down the road.
We had a horrible OWB in the center of town a few years back, completely choked the entire area with smoke 24 hours a day - the owner did the right thing and got rid of it, even before anyone from the town got involved, but I suspect not everyone would be so cooperative.
We had a horrible OWB in the center of town a few years back, completely choked the entire area with smoke 24 hours a day - the owner did the right thing and got rid of it, even before anyone from the town got involved, but I suspect not everyone would be so cooperative.
FrankMA
Member
Mr. Ed: The neighborhood got together and collectively complained about this guy burning anything he could stuff in there. It became a he said/she said type of situation with the town management. The offender was eventually caught redhanded by a town official one day loading the OWB with used pressure treated lumber and was ordered to cease using it until a hearing was held. He was eventually instructed what could be burned in the OWB and was placed on probation of sorts.
My friend told me the horror stories of having to live with the horrendous smoke and smell on a daily basis. He is of the opinon that an OWB should not be allowed in a residential area. I guess it only takes one knuckle head to cast a dark shadow like that.
My friend told me the horror stories of having to live with the horrendous smoke and smell on a daily basis. He is of the opinon that an OWB should not be allowed in a residential area. I guess it only takes one knuckle head to cast a dark shadow like that.
woodsy said:
And one knuckle head like that can cause very serious health issues for many people. Unfortunately, hence the need for regulation. You can never trust everyone will play nice. Luckily this idiot was caught red handed.
My town does not regulate OWB yet but the state is clamping down Jan 09. I to participate in my local gov and I strongly believe in our state motto "Live Free or Die" and every time you add a law or regulation you lose some freedom. I saw our building inspector the day my gas. boiler was being delivered and ask if I needed a "permit" his first response was not one of those "pain in the AS@es",He said he gets all kinds of complaints on the smoke and they all should be banned. My response was screw the permit, I paid my taxes that was permit enough 
plus to come over and see it working with no smoke smell etc, and he might changes his mind. He has yet to come by.
We have a dealer for one of the more popular OWB and if you open the door on his demo it is stuffed with trash and my statement to him was your the reason laws have to be passed, his reply that is how we get rid of all our trash
plus to come over and see it working with no smoke smell etc, and he might changes his mind. He has yet to come by.We have a dealer for one of the more popular OWB and if you open the door on his demo it is stuffed with trash and my statement to him was your the reason laws have to be passed, his reply that is how we get rid of all our trash
FrankMA
Member
603doug said:
THAT is why I'm against regulation.... It's not the OWB that's the problem. It's the user of it.. So, pass laws against improper use, not against the equipment.
Lets face it, cars are a way bigger health hazard than OWB's..... But does that mean that cars are bad and should be outlawed? Or does that mean we pass laws governing how cars can be driven on public roadways?
Well the meeting went o.k. the board could not understand why i was so concerned if i was going to be grandfathered. I told them i was concerned for other people who (after regulations adopted) will most likely not be able to install an outdoor boiler without some significant rules. Long story short i brought up many valid points and they are going to table the vote until discussions at their next meeting.
Chris S
New Member
My town has a local law regulating OWBs it specifies distance to a property line among other things. This alone prohibits install in the village areas. One of teh regs calls for the chimney to be at a higher point than the chimney on the house. Picture that on a 2 story home.
I spoke to the local building inspector (s) about gasification boilers- which they were unfamiliar with. I believe that when the law was written gasification boilers, or the thought of epa compliant boilers was not even considered. He is considering my boiler an indoor boiler, and not lumping it in with the owbs. it is inside- a detached building.
I spoke to the local building inspector (s) about gasification boilers- which they were unfamiliar with. I believe that when the law was written gasification boilers, or the thought of epa compliant boilers was not even considered. He is considering my boiler an indoor boiler, and not lumping it in with the owbs. it is inside- a detached building.
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