Greetings from Newbie

[martyinmi]

Hey all. I've visited this site a few times in the last year or so,and there seems to be a lot of information here that is quite interesting,so I thought I might as well sign up. I've owned two brand name gassers,an Empyre Pro Series 100,and I am currently running a P&M Optimizer 250. I've also built a couple gassers. Mine have all been OWB's. After several hours of reading here,I see that most on this site appear to be big fans of mass storage. I don't understand the logic behind it. Is the initial lower cost the biggest attraction to mass storage? I wouldn't guess it would be emissions or efficiencies, as the OWB gassers that I've seen in operation(Central Boiler,P&M,Wood Doctor,Natures Comfort) are about as close to being smoke free as an oil burner,the EPA rates them very well,and their efficiency claims are right up there with the European manufacturers that are intended for mass storage.
Go easy on me guys. I'm just wondering what I'm missing out on. There has to be money,wood or time to be saved,or so many of you wouldn't be doing it.

Thanks,

Marty-in Mi

 

[woodsmaster]

Welcome, to the hearth. Storage is supposed to make the system more efficient (use less wood). The main advantages tho are
are no idling so no creosote build up on the tubes or chimneys and convenience. It's nice to build 1 fire a day when your schedule permits. In the summer I can go 4 or 5 days without a fire and still satisfy my domestic hot water demands. Storage does add more cost to the system.

 

[woodsmaster]

these european type boilers have been around for a long time and are proven. and the outdoor gassers are relitivly new so buying an outdoor gasser is kinda like a crap shoot. It might last a long time with no problems, or it might not.

 

[woodsmaster]

One more thing I forgot. For less than the price of a cetral boiler gasser or most other outdoor gassers I have a indoor model, 1000 gallons storage and a shed that it's in. That means I can load clean etc. while inside out of the weather and also a great hot place to store wood to keep it dry before burning. If the boiler ever went bad I'm still up a shed.

 

[JP11]

For me..

I need to have something that the wife can tend minimally. Going outside is gonna ruin it for me. Inside, with wood right next to it. Fill er up.. and let the computer run it to stuff all the heat in the water. The water is inside.. so losses aren't really losses.

I'm getting a Vigas.. and can't wait to get it set up. Been scrounging on my own land. I keep finding treasures. I'm doing two, no three things at once.

1. Getting Exercise
2. Cleaning up my trails and woods
3. Storing up heat for next winter.

I guess it's 4, if you add having fun

JP

 

[Duetech]

As with the old wood stoves the primary effect with storage and gassers is the equivalence of seeking the greatest length of burn between loads. Instead of loading every few hours with the old wood stove a gasser with storage set up can allow you the time of day you need for incidentals like work or hobbies that may come along (honey-do list...lol). Economy and efficiency are just welcome tag-a-longs. Reducing dependency on fossil type fuels and their costs is another. Prices fluctuate every time some shah or speculator gets a boil on his mindset (or where he sets his mind) and I easily would consume $800 a month for heating costs and another $50-$80 per month for dhw. Well insulated storage that is indoors will easily have a heat retention factor that an OW"G"B will not have no matter how clean the exhaust is (i.e. efficiency = length of burn). Storage indoors will "leak" (as mentioned above) heat into the building it is stored in and not the great out doors. Your statement "There has to be money,wood or time to be saved, or so many of you wouldn’t be doing it." is right on cue but I would like to add that when you think about it there is a small book that could be written about the "satisfaction quotient" a person receives from successfully overcoming the initiative. Welcome to the forum martyinmi.

 

[muncybob]

We don't run storage....yet. Main reason we don't have it now is partly the $$ needed to install and partly space limitations. I hope in a few years I can resolve both to my satisfaction. Based on my understanding of how thermmal storage works, I'm not sure I would agree on storage being more efficient in terms of using less firewood. I would agree that using thermal storage is much more convenient(get the burn done and forget about burning/reloadingfirewood for an extended period of time) and it makes more sense from a boiler perspective to limit any idle time and re-fires.
I have no first hand experience with OWB's but my boiler is fairly efficient in so far as it has met or exceeded my expectations on how much firewood we go through in a season. I will always remember the 1st time a friend came into our basement and saw my wood rack with about 4 days worth of firewood stacked...he was burning that much in 2 days. His comment was that it's not a big deal since his wood is "free"(as is mine) but I replied that you will work twice as hard as me for the same end result.

 

[Mauler]

One more thing I forgot. For less than the price of a cetral boiler gasser or most other outdoor gassers I have a indoor model, 1000 gallons storage and a shed that it's in. That means I can load clean etc. while inside out of the weather and also a great hot place to store wood to keep it dry before burning. If the boiler ever went bad I'm still up a shed.

I'm also a newbie and I've read a lot of the threads here on hearth.com. One thing that keeps coming up is that the cost of the indoor (in an out shed) vs outdoor gassers is lower for the indoor. I had installs qouted for both indoor econoburn (in outshed) and the econoburn outdoor, the cost was higher for the indoor (because of more components, dump zone, labor, etc). Add in the cost of shed and the indoor econoburn (in outshed) was much higher installed then the outdoor gasser. I totally get the other benefits of the indoor gasser (in an outshed) but don't understand why people keep saying the cost is lower for the indoor vs outdoor. What am I missing?

 

[Mauler]

Hey all. I've visited this site a few times in the last year or so,and there seems to be a lot of information here that is quite interesting,so I thought I might as well sign up. I've owned two brand name gassers,an Empyre Pro Series 100,and I am currently running a P&M Optimizer 250. I've also built a couple gassers. Mine have all been OWB's. After several hours of reading here,I see that most on this site appear to be big fans of mass storage. I don't understand the logic behind it. Is the initial lower cost the biggest attraction to mass storage? I wouldn't guess it would be emissions or efficiencies, as the OWB gassers that I've seen in operation(Central Boiler,P&M,Wood Doctor,Natures Comfort) are about as close to being smoke free as an oil burner,the EPA rates them very well,and their efficiency claims are right up there with the European manufacturers that are intended for mass storage.
Go easy on me guys. I'm just wondering what I'm missing out on. There has to be money,wood or time to be saved,or so many of you wouldn't be doing it.

Thanks,

Marty-in Mi

why did you switch from the empyre to the optimizer?

 

[willworkforwood]

I'm also a newbie and I've read a lot of the threads here on hearth.com. One thing that keeps coming up is that the cost of the indoor (in an out shed) vs outdoor gassers is lower for the indoor. I had installs qouted for both indoor econoburn (in outshed) and the econoburn outdoor, the cost was higher for the indoor (because of more components, dump zone, labor, etc). Add in the cost of shed and the indoor econoburn (in outshed) was much higher installed then the outdoor gasser. I totally get the other benefits of the indoor gasser (in an outshed) but don't understand why people keep saying the cost is lower for the indoor vs outdoor. What am I missing?

When I (and I believe most other folks) say "indoor", we are referring to locating the boiler in the basement, or a building attached to the house in such a manner which allows no underground lines to be needed (and also no shed building required). So, the elimination of underground lines and shed prep/building is where the cost savings occurs. Naturally, if significant construction is required, such as building a separate boiler room or new chimney, the cost of the indoor install goes up. In my case, the WB is piped with just a small amount of black/copper, next to and in series with the existing OB. No construction, new load distribution controls, or underground lines needed. Couldn't be easier or simpler, and for my situation it was most definitely the least expensive installation option.

 

[muncybob]

One of the BIG reasons we went with an indoor unit was the cost of running insulated lines the 150' needed to the house. Of course, the ability to load the boiler in my PJ's was a nice add on benefit!

 

[martyinmi]

Thanks for the welcome everyone.
Mauler-I got a great deal on the Empyre last year. It was only 2 months old and I picked it up for almost $3000.00 less than the price of a new one. I used it for about six months and sold it for what I paid for it. I knew when I purchased it that I would have to load it 3x daily when it was very cold(about 20 days/year),and going out at 10:00 pm to load it just to make it until 6:00 am was not for me.Empyre(Pro-Fab) has done a lot of R&D on these gassers,and I incorporated a few of their ideas into my gassers I've built.The 100 was just too small for my corn crib of a house. The Portage and Main has a much larger firebox,so it is much better suited to my situation.It will easily go 48 hours in moderate winter weather if I decide to vacation for the weekend.Their refractory design is the best out there in my opinion.It can idle for up to 3 1/2 hours between cycles and still start gasifying within around 20 seconds.I usually load it twice/day,as I don't think it's good for any of them to have the metal exposed to all the steam/creosote for 24 hours or more.
As far as indoor units go,doesn't the mess associated with storing wood inside(bugs,sawdust,bark),as well as the smoke get old after a while?I used an Ashley stove for many years,then moved to a Consolodated Dutchwest Federal air tight,then to a TSC furnace. It seemed we always had a smokey house with ants.My wife loves it now that there is no odor or mess inside.I burn about half the wood with the boiler that I did with the furnace in the basement,and I'm not feeding it 4x/day.
Cave2k,I really don't understand what you mean by "efficiency=length of burn". My boiler does not emit smoke from the beginning(just steam for a few seconds) of the cycle until the end.There is barely anything visible coming from the stack during idle.As long as my wood is seasoned properly, there is almost no creosote in the transfer tubes,as well as in the stack.Also, the infrequency of loading my OWB certainly does not interfere with work or hobbies.I was not home for almost 36 hours last weekend,and when I did get home,My house was still 73* and the boiler was still 25% full with wood.I guess I'm baffled too as to where I might be leaking heat into the great outdoors.Mine has three inches of snow on it right now-the same as what is on the ground.The only place where I might be leaking heat might be from my underground insulated pex,but I believe that loss is negligible(hope that's the right word),as I bought the very best on the market(CB Thermo Pex). I've burned about 1 1/2 cords since the first of October,and I think that should be right in line with what a mass storage unit might consume based on the heat demands I have.
Thanks for all the reply's everyone. I am open minded enough to consider mass storage if the benefits will offset the associated costs in a reasonable length of time.

Marty

 

[woodsmaster]

One more thing I forgot. For less than the price of a cetral boiler gasser or most other outdoor gassers I have a indoor model, 1000 gallons storage and a shed that it's in. That means I can load clean etc. while inside out of the weather and also a great hot place to store wood to keep it dry before burning. If the boiler ever went bad I'm still up a shed.

I'm also a newbie and I've read a lot of the threads here on hearth.com. One thing that keeps coming up is that the cost of the indoor (in an out shed) vs outdoor gassers is lower for the indoor. I had installs qouted for both indoor econoburn (in outshed) and the econoburn outdoor, the cost was higher for the indoor (because of more components, dump zone, labor, etc). Add in the cost of shed and the indoor econoburn (in outshed) was much higher installed then the outdoor gasser. I totally get the other benefits of the indoor gasser (in an outshed) but don't understand why people keep saying the cost is lower for the indoor vs outdoor. What am I missing?

The reason in my case it was cheaper is because I installed it and built the shed my self. If I figured in my time or paid someone to install it and build the shed the outdoor model would have been much cheaper. That being said I enjoyed the install and love the storage.

 

[flyingcow]

i put my boiler in my unattached garage piped 100ft to my basement into the storage tank. Works very well. I bought my gasser($7000) plus my tank ($4500) instead of an E-Classic OWB($12,000) and burn less wood. The E-Classic salesman supplied these numbers on wood usage...100 gals of oil= 1 cord of well seasoned wood. My indoor gasser, 1 cord of well seasoned wood=150 gals of oil, sometimes closer to 175 gals of oil. But i did not know about the Portage and Main OWB. That should perform leaps and bounds above an E-Classic.

 

[Gasifier]

That outdoor gasser sounds like a nice unit. Do you heat your DHW with your wood boiler? The main reason I put a buffer/storage tank in is to increase the time throughout the year I can use the boiler. I also went with the buffer because it can add to the length of time between loadings, but even more important to me was to be able to use wood to heat my DHW in the fall and spring, or shoulder seasons. Fire the boiler once a day to heat up the tank and then turn it off. Enough for hot water and a little house heat demand for 24 hours. I can even heat my DHW during the summer if I choose. I am going to try it, this is my first year. One fire every two days for DHW and using no oil would be great. I have used no oil since October 1st.! :coolsmile: That is what it is all about for me. No oil.

 

[martyinmi]

I do have a sidearm exchanger. My hwh is an old Bradford White 52 gal. We use an awful lot of hot water. We are on Consumers Energy here,and they are hogs. We save between $70 and $80/mo because the unit is so old. I can definitely see how mass storage would be beneficial in the late spring/summer/early fall. I have tried heating DHW only with the Empyre gasser during that time frame, but couldn't hold a reliable fire.

 

[Duetech]

Thanks for the welcome everyone.
Cave2k,I really don't understand what you mean by "efficiency=length of burn". Thanks for all the reply's everyone. I am open minded enough to consider mass storage if the benefits will offset the associated costs in a reasonable length of time. Marty

I was just pointing out that compared to loading a wood stove 4x (or more) times a day (time and energy and fuel consumption) that a gasser with storage can extend loading times and in that sense efficiency is not just what you don't see coming out of your chimney but is also more economical on your day. Loading a gasser 2x in a 6-8 hour period for a days heat is more efficient than loading a wood stove 4-6 times a day for the same days heat. Sorry for the vague referrence.

 

[Duetech]

I did 1/2 to 1/4 daily loads in my gasser for 4 years during the warmer months including summer for dhw. When the dhw got up to temp I would shut the boiler off but keep the circ running to prevent over heating the boiler. My firebox would have a bunch of char and unburned wood and would relight and gasify fairly quick. I think the refractory stayed warm to hot for the best part of those 4 years. My propane bill for 2 years averaged $3.93 per month. What I saved in propane for one year of regular usage of the propane water heater allowed me to buy fire wood for two years. Finding the flexibility of your system can yield a lot of satisfaction.

 

[martyinmi]

How would one go about using mass storage along with OWB in the summer for DHW only? My wife likes water very hot. Cookie thermometer says it is 126* right now thanks to wide open mixing valve. It stores at about 160* while using boiler in winter. How much storage would I need to get by with one burn/week to keep DHW above 126*? OWB holds 250 gallons. Even though we are a family of three,we probably use as much hot water as a family of four. Would I still be able to use my side arm with circ pump or would I need a plate exchanger?
Thanks in advance. Really liking this site.

Marty

 

[flyingcow]

My family of 5 goes about 4 to 5 days on one medium wheelbarrow of wood, this is for DHW in summer. I have 820 gals of storage. Also mention to your wife, the hotter the water, the more she needs to split and stack.

 

[martyinmi]

flyingcow, that is funny! I will let my beautiful bride read your reply. I'm sure her response will be something to this effect:"About the time I split and stack wood will be the time that you cook, do laundry, and clean the house- which includes scrubbing the crap you and your son get all over the toilet". Actually, she's got lasagna and garlic toast planned for supper tonight, so I'll wait until I'm done eating before I let her read your post :coolgrin:
Marty

 

[flyingcow]

flyingcow, that is funny! I will let my beautiful bride read your reply. I'm sure her response will be something to this effect:"About the time I split and stack wood will be the time that you cook, do laundry, and clean the house- which includes scrubbing the crap you and your son get all over the toilet". Actually, she's got lasagna and garlic toast planned for supper tonight, so I'll wait until I'm done eating before I let her read your post :coolgrin:
Marty

Almost the same thing i hear word for word.