Grinding Vanguard chains

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Does anyone have a picture or good, detailed description of how they effectively grind down the rakers on the oregon vanguard safety chain? I have already spent too much time with a file trying to get them down, and am not satisfied with the results. I have a bench grinder and an angle grinder and am ready to go. I won't grind them all the way off, but perhaps grinding the bent over section would be workable.

I only have two of these chains, but I'm sure many of us have at least one that they really don't want to just throw out. I've posted about this before but did not get detailed enough description to figure it out.

For anyone not familiar with vanguard chain, the rakers are bent over and the trailing edge is as wide as the cutting tooth.

 

[Sean McGillicuddy]

Easy... touch up the chain with Stihl's 2 in 1 sharpening guild.It hits teath and rakers at the same time.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Easy... touch up the chain with Stihl's 2 in 1 sharpening guild.It hits teath and rakers at the same time.

View attachment 188597

Sean- You actually have used one of these on a vanguard chain? You sure you know what chain I'm talking about?

Anyone else second Sean's view that the "two in one" solves the vanguard chain issues?

 

[woodhog73]

I highly doubt the 2 in 1 sharpening tool is going to work very well on the vanguard chain. I can't see how the file is going to hit the raker in the right area.

I don't think that tool works very well on any chain to be honest. My buddy bought one like that and he used it once and that was it.

I'd probably bench grind them if your not satisfied with the hand file. You might end up taking too much off though so id go slowly. Let us know how you make out for anyone else who might have some of that chain

One thing to point out though that the angled raker is what gives this chain it's low kick back characteristic so I'm not sure the effect of mis filed rakers will have on that.

 

[blades]

I grind those some what like a cutter reversing the chain in the vise and matching the angle leading into the gullet- can't really see any other way to do it. Sure can't file/ grind them down from the top.

 

[Jon1270]

Sure can't file/ grind them down from the top.

Au contraire; I've done it with a chain grinder. When I got my (knock-off Oregon 511) grinder, I practiced on a trashed Vanguard chain. By the time I got back to the usable parts of the teeth there was almost nothing left of them, and I had to take the rakers way down. They look odd, but that chain cuts very well.

 

[blades]

Griding down the top flatdefeats their pupose, grinding back from the gullet keeps original intention intack

 

[Jon1270]

Griding down the top flatdefeats their pupose, grinding back from the gullet keeps original intention intack

Oh, I see what you're suggesting. That does sound like a better way to go.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I grind those some what like a cutter reversing the chain in the vise and matching the angle leading into the gullet- can't really see any other way to do it. Sure can't file/ grind them down from the top.

Blades- Now we are getting somewhere. It did not occur to me to file back from the gullet, but that could be the answer. I've been trying to file from the top like with a regular raker. Please be a little more descriptive, when you say reversing the chain in the vice, I'm guessing that you are using a bench sharpener? For folks who do not have a bench sharpener, perhaps using a the flat raker file, held more or less vertical, rather than more or less horizontal (as with a regular raker)?

I have read that there is a regulation, now in place, that requires safety chain on all chainsaw models marketed to homeowners (determined by the engine displacement, if I recall correctly) which means that there are a lot of these vanguard chains out there, with lots more to come (I think most Husky Ranchers will have them).

I have to come to the conclusion, because there is no good explanation or description of how to lower the rakers from the companies that sell them, that either they are intending to sell more chains when frustrated customers just throw them away, or whoever is responsible for taking care of this communication (marketing department, maybe?), is doing a really chitty job. Either way, this is a failure (or perhaps a bit of a betrayal), by Oregon and Husqvarna.

 

[woodhog73]

I have read that there is a regulation, now in place, that requires safety chain on all chainsaw models marketed to homeowners (determined by the engine displacement, if I recall correctly) which means that there are a lot of these vanguard chains out there, with lots more to come (I think most Husky Ranchers will have them).

I have to come to the conclusion, because there is no good explanation or description of how to lower the rakers from the companies that sell them, that either they are intending to sell more chains when frustrated customers.

No there is traditional safety chain with the extra bumper on the raker. The Vanguard is low kick back without the crappy cutting of a traditional low kickback safety chain. I don't think your going to see Vanguard chains at all on any new saws by any manufacturer. Did that chain come on your saw ?

In regards to the raker comment. Reminds me I once went to a Stihl dealer that mainly carries only the homeowner and farm models. No pro saws at this place. Which is fine because I wanted a depth gauge to do my rakers . Guy behind the counter said he didn't know what that was and didn't carry them.

Ok then

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

No there is traditional safety chain with the extra bumper on the raker. The Vanguard is low kick back without the crappy cutting of a traditional low kickback safety chain. I don't think your going to see Vanguard chains at all on any new saws by any manufacturer. Did that chain come on your saw ?

In regards to the raker comment. Reminds me I once went to a Stihl dealer that mainly carries only the homeowner and farm models. No pro saws at this place. Which is fine because I wanted a depth gauge to do my rakers . Guy behind the counter said he didn't know what that was and didn't carry them.

Ok then

woodhog73- I'll be honest, what??? My Husky 455 came with a vanguard chain and I ended up with an identical one as a backup as a gift . If you want to see for yourself, just check out this new thing they call the internet, and see what the OEM replacement chain is for most Husky Ranchers.

They cut fine until it was time to grind the raker down, and then, I couldn't figure out how to get it done effectively, and instead of making chips, I was making fine sawdust (hence the post). Stop by whatever home improvement store near you in "somewhere cold!" that sells Husky chainsaws and check out the chain that they come with if you are having trouble figuring out this newfangled internet thing.

Your comment that "The Vanguard is low kick back without the crappy cutting of a traditional low kickback safety chain" might be entirely accurate until you sharpen the tooth down to the point that the raker needs filed.

 

[woodhog73]

woodhog73- I'll be honest, what??? My Husky 455 came with a vanguard chain and I ended up with an identical one as a backup as a gift . If you want to see for yourself, just check out this new thing they call the internet, and see what the OEM replacement chain is for most Husky Ranchers.

They cut fine until it was time to grind the raker down, and then, I couldn't figure out how to get it done effectively, and instead of making chips, I was making fine sawdust (hence the post). Stop by whatever home improvement store near you in "somewhere cold!" that sells Husky chainsaws and check out the chain that they come with if you are having trouble figuring out this newfangled internet thing.

Your comment that "The Vanguard is low kick back without the crappy cutting of a traditional low kickback safety chain" might be entirely accurate until you sharpen the tooth down to the point that the raker needs filed.

Wow you seem angry and I'll leave it at that.

The 2 box stores in my area that carry Husky saws have them all fitted with safety chain and it's not the Vanguard chain. Perhaps the saws on their shelves are old stock. Who knows. If your rancher came with vanguard chain stock then I believe you, but the models I've seen are not fitted with that chain.

I also know what's listed on a manufacturers website is not always accurate. This is especially true with Husky products. Atleast that's what I've noticed in my 25 years of buying saws.

I think I know what the internet is. C'mon man no need to go that low. But it's a free country say what you wish.

As for your Vanguard chain let us know what works for you. I'd be interested to know how it ends up. In all my years cutting I've actually come across people who have darn near ground their rakers off ! Don't know how that would work out wouldn't want to do that. But I can appreciate the extra pain in the ass it probably is with the rakers on that Vanguard chain. I like to touch my rakers up every 4 th or 5th filing so I'd be frustrated if I couldn't easily do that in the field. Especially when I've got trees to put on the ground not waste time with picky chain rakers.

Ahhh I digress......I'm off to google what the internet is , wait Google is the internet right ? Or is that Bing ? Ah gee I'm confused Back to waiting for my turkey to cook.

Happy thanksgiving all

 

[Jon1270]

The more I think about this, the more skeptical I am that grinding away the back end of the rakers would make much difference in the cutting performance in comparison to grinding the top down. The former seems cleaner and more elegant in a way, but the height and the shape of the rakers' leading surface would be the same either way.

 

[highanddryinco]

Gotta admit, I didn't think this thread would go this far but since it has, I guess I need to go to HD and look at this Vangaurd chain up close. Looking at the Oregon website and the associated PDF for their chain, it would seem like a pretty standard sharpening job with the exception of the added width of the raker top requiring a few more strokes to get it sufficiently lowered.

 

[woodhog73]

Gotta admit, I didn't think this thread would go this far but since it has, I guess I need to go to HD and look at this Vangaurd chain up close. Looking at the Oregon website and the associated PDF for their chain, it would seem like a pretty standard sharpening job with the exception of the added width of the raker top requiring a few more strokes to get it sufficiently lowered.

Agree I think I'm going to do the same . HD near me carries smaller echos I haven't seen this chain fitted to any of those.

I'm gonna take a look at Lowes they have ranchers on display. Last time I looked I didn't see this chain but perhaps it's just on certain models. Or just check out the Chain in the box.

I probably would end up filing this raker incorrectly if I was doing it because knowing me I'd probably file it from the top anyways. I suspect as you get the raker height in check the chain should continue to cut. But if the OP is concerned about keeping the low kick back feature I'm afraid filing from the top down would or could negatively impact that.

But I don't know which is why I'm curious to find out how the OP makes out with the rakers and how the chain ends up performing.

 

[DodgyNomad]

I highly doubt the 2 in 1 sharpening tool is going to work very well on the vanguard chain. I can't see how the file is going to hit the raker in the right area.

I don't think that tool works very well on any chain to be honest. My buddy bought one like that and he used it once and that was it.

I'd probably bench grind them if your not satisfied with the hand file. You might end up taking too much off though so id go slowly. Let us know how you make out for anyone else who might have some of that chain

One thing to point out though that the angled raker is what gives this chain it's low kick back characteristic so I'm not sure the effect of mis filed rakers will have on that.

Your buddy is likely doing something wrong. Either the wrong size for his chain, or he's not correctly holding his angles.

For what it is, the Stihl 2in1 is absolutely phenomenal at sharpening chains. Your friend needs to chuck his bar up in a vise and tighten his chains. If in doubt, apply some Dykem layout fluid on your cutters and examine them after a couple of strokes and make adjustments.

It's an amazing sharpener. Period.

 

[blades]

Look carefully at the depth gage if you will note that it does slope and if I can do this correctly is the pdf from Oregon hope this is some help

 

[Jon1270]

Look carefully at the depth gage if you will note that it does slope and if I can do this correctly is the pdf from Oregon hope this is some help

Oh I know that it slopes, but the size and angle of the sloped face would be just the same, for a given height, regardless of whether the back or top was being ground off. But grinding off the back would leave an upward-pointing corner at the top, whereas grinding down from the top leaves a horizontal flat at the apex.

It's too bad the Oregon PDF doesn't go into more detail on this issue.

 

[blades]

If you file grind back from the gullet side the overall height is reduced yes the drawing is less than adequate.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I'm a little late to this party, but the Vanguard chain I have has an etched contour line on the raker showing where and at what angle to file. It's labeled as "5" in the pdf. I have a sharpforce 2-file unit that hits it correctly.

 

[DUMF]

I highly doubt the 2 in 1 sharpening tool is going to work very well on the vanguard chain. I can't see how the file is going to hit the raker in the right area.
I don't think that tool works very well on any chain to be honest. My buddy bought one like that and he used it once and that was it.
I'd probably bench grind them if your not satisfied with the hand file. You might end up taking too much off though so id go slowly. Let us know how you make out for anyone else who might have some of that chain
One thing to point out though that the angled raker is what gives this chain it's low kick back characteristic so I'm not sure the effect of mis filed rakers will have on that.

Wait one second WH. Sean is correct, again, again. The Pferd ( licensed to Stihl as shown ) dual system of sharpening the cutting edge AND the raker (yellow or green = non "safety or ""safety" raker ) on the same stroke does the job anywhere and efficiently. No need to use a grinding device except, except, when your chain edge hits metal or rocks or sand or gravel. For most users IN THE FIELD you've got to know hand filing.
The Pferd ( Stihl or otherwise) WILL do what's unfortunately called "safety chain". And, most civilians using a power grinder do it wrong
Try it first, then evaluate , but be sure to get the Pferd system made for your specific chain specifications. There's no set up, nothing but a firm hand following the witness line on the top of the cutters. It's a real K.I.S.S. tool better than Charmin.
Most pros, even carrying extra chains, know how to hand touch up on the job. You do hand file WH, don't you ?
Honestly, those safety chains called "low kickback" ain't. Users need to know how to avoid kickback potential in any operation.

I forgot to mention WH that raker depth below the cutter is similar is both yellow and green chains.

 

[DodgyNomad]

Wait one second WH. Sean is correct, again, again. The Pferd ( licensed to Stihl as shown ) dual system of sharpening the cutting edge AND the raker (yellow or green = non "safety or ""safety" raker ) on the same stroke does the job anywhere and efficiently. No need to use a grinding device except, except, when your chain edge hits metal or rocks or sand or gravel. For most users IN THE FIELD you've got to know hand filing.
The Pferd ( Stihl or otherwise) WILL do what's unfortunately called "safety chain". And, most civilians using a power grinder do it wrong
Try it first, then evaluate , but be sure to get the Pferd system made for your specific chain specifications. There's no set up, nothing but a firm hand following the witness line on the top of the cutters. It's a real K.I.S.S. tool better than Charmin.
Most pros, even carrying extra chains, know how to hand touch up on the job. You do hand file WH, don't you ?
Honestly, those safety chains called "low kickback" ain't. Users need to know how to avoid kickback potential in any operation.

I forgot to mention WH that raker depth below the cutter is similar is both yellow and green chains.

Good info. I think the key bit here is to make sure you're using the Pferd/Stihl 2in1 for the correct size chain. When Pferd first brought these to market, they garnered great praise and several awards for it. I watched it closely, but having just bought another filing system, I was reluctant to jump on it. When I saw the same product show up in orange and white at my Stihl dealer for even less money, I took a few moments and examined it out of the package and we gave it a few strokes on a saw right on the counter.

I took the chance and brought it home. I have since retired the multiple electric sharpeners I had collected over the years, and my other hand file systems. I've bought one for my father, and my other wood cutting friends have purchased them after I sharpened their chains to factory fresh.

It's a simple, but great sharpening tool, and at least around here, none of the local chain sharpening "experts" can match it. There's a little touch and some expertise you can apply to get them that final 5% sharp, but even if you're sloppy with your setup and technique, it will still be better than what your hardware store can do.

 

[woodhog73]

Most pros, even carrying extra chains, know how to hand touch up on the job. You do hand file WH, don't you ?

I forgot to mention WH that raker depth below the cutter is similar is both yellow and green chains.

Yes and yes nothing new. But good to point out

To be honest I've never used that 2 in 1 tool but my buddy who I've been helping on and off over the last several years with some land clearing jobs did. He didn't like the tool, and honestly I never gave it much thought afterwards.

However everyone here who has responded about the 2 in 1 tool seems to put a lot of value on the tool so I'm sure it must work when done correctly.

For me anything much more than 5 minutes.....in the field....with a file putting a sharp edge on my cutters is too long. Usually there is to much work to get done but ofcourse no one wants a dull chain. So I tend to touch my chains up with a file atleast a couple times an hour or so, when the chips turn to dust, etc.

This past weekend I've been cleaning up a couple of downed oaks that are dirty so keeping an edge on the cutters seemed to be an every 15 minute deal. Nothing worse than cutting dirty wood and rotted stumps as it relates to your chain.

I think any experienced user probably hand files in the field, as often as required to keep the chips flying. No experienced user is going to put up with a dull chain, or one that doesn't cut because the rakers have not been filed, etc and I'm sure everyone here would agree on that.

But if the 2 in 1 sharpener gets the job done quickly in the field then I can understand it's value. And why people like it. For me I've been doing it without that tool for 25 years so just haven't given it much thought, honestly. Old dog new tricks issue, etc

 

[DUMF]

Yes and yes nothing new. But good to point out
To be honest I've never used that 2 in 1 tool but my buddy who I've been helping on and off over the last several years with some land clearing jobs did. He didn't like the tool, and honestly I never gave it much thought afterwards.
However everyone here who has responded about the 2 in 1 tool seems to put a lot of value on the tool so I'm sure it must work when done correctly.
For me anything much more than 5 minutes.....in the field....with a file putting a sharp edge on my cutters is too long. Usually there is to much work to get done but ofcourse no one wants a dull chain. So I tend to touch my chains up with a file atleast a couple times an hour or so, when the chips turn to dust, etc.
This past weekend I've been cleaning up a couple of downed oaks that are dirty so keeping an edge on the cutters seemed to be an every 15 minute deal. Nothing worse than cutting dirty wood and rotted stumps as it relates to your chain.
I think any experienced user probably hand files in the field, as often as required to keep the chips flying. No experienced user is going to put up with a dull chain, or one that doesn't cut because the rakers have not been filed, etc and I'm sure everyone here would agree on that.
But if the 2 in 1 sharpener gets the job done quickly in the field then I can understand it's value. And why people like it. For me I've been doing it without that tool for 25 years so just haven't given it much thought, honestly. Old dog new tricks issue, etc

Kinda like saying "got along without seatbelts or airbags for 25 years" why start ? "Never used chaps." "What's a chain brake anyhow ? "
That "5 minutes" or even more for experienced loggers can save not only time but their butt ( and butts ). No telling when you're going to hit some rot, dirt, a round ( 30-06 ) or barbed wire in a cut that can destroy a chain in the field.
Gotta tell you WH, once you've tried the Pferd(s) out, you'll never go back to any other system including those stupid grinders. Hey, better than sex ( am I allowed to say that ? ). Try it, you'll like it, no not sex.

 

[Dairyman]

Kinda like saying "got along without seatbelts or airbags for 25 years" why start ? "Never used chaps." "What's a chain brake anyhow ? "
That "5 minutes" or even more for experienced loggers can save not only time but their butt ( and butts ). No telling when you're going to hit some rot, dirt, a round ( 30-06 ) or barbed wire in a cut that can destroy a chain in the field.
Gotta tell you WH, once you've tried the Pferd(s) out, you'll never go back to any other system including those stupid grinders. Hey, better than sex ( am I allowed to say that ? ). Try it, you'll like it, no not sex.

Lol. Can your pferd to this?