Grundfos Pump, Taco flanges?

[HeatFarmer]

So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage.

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

I have an Alpha on the other end which is doing this same lift in the primary loop, from the cellar, back up 12 feet to the boiler loop, running around 13gpm & moving water at 48watts. It's range is up to 19ft of head and 21gpm max.

My question is, can I get another Alpha and slip it into the Taco flanges I have already installed, or do I have to really break down the system and swap flanges as well??

 

[goosegunner]

So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage.

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

I have an Alpha on the other end which is doing this same lift in the primary loop, from the cellar, back up 12 feet to the boiler loop, running around 13gpm & moving water at 48watts. It's range is up to 19ft of head and 21gpm max.

My question is, can I get another Alpha and slip it into the Taco flanges I have already installed, or do I have to really break down the system and swap flanges as well??

How many gpm will the alpa move at your 12-13 ft of head?

 

[taxidermist]

You need to try and close your bypass ball valve More or all the way. I close mine all the way when I know my return water is above 140* Or just leave it open just a hair. a taco 10 should be fine for your boiler. I dont get my storage much over 185* with the boiler control set to 195*


Rob

 

[HeatFarmer]

GG, I have an Alpha doing almost the same lift on the house side of the system & it is running in the 11-13gpm range circulating on the primary loop. This would appear to be the Max I can get at this head. If I need more GPM for an EKO 60, then I'll have to choose another pump, like a Taco 011 or Grundfos UP26-99F which is way more expensive....

 

[HeatFarmer]

You need to try and close your bypass ball valve More or all the way. I close mine all the way when I know my return water is above 140* Or just leave it open just a hair. a taco 10 should be fine for your boiler. I dont get my storage much over 185* with the boiler control set to 195*


Rob

I have my bypass cracked a red-one....I'll throw it all the way closed when I walk by it next.
I was really hoping to see less than a 15 or 10º difference in temp between boiler & storage. I can't believe there is really that much of a drop showing between the gauges at the boiler and those at the tank.
Still, I guess I should be pushing for that other 5º at a bare minimum.

I also better add, that it is taking me the better part of 8 or 9 hours to get from 172-174º to 180º & then hold it there with the boiler idling after the first 2-3 hours.

 

[woodsmaster]

Are you talking about temp on top or bottom of tank. I rarely heat the bottom of my tank over 180 but often get the top 3 rd
to 190. Anymore I try not to heat all the way to 195 to help conserve wood.

 

[HeatFarmer]

Are you talking about temp on top or bottom of tank. I rarely heat the bottom of my tank over 180 but often get the top 3 rd
to 190. Anymore I try not to heat all the way to 195 to help conserve wood.

I'm talking TOP of tank temp....the bottom starts off at a 10-12º lower difference and closes in to a 5-8º difference before I quite monitoring for the day..... I've been charting the top of tank temps to see how long each day it's taking me to get from start to 180+, along with some weather data. I've been burning all the same wood, but I've been trying to select for the driest stuff I have.

 

[henfruit]

What size is the manifold? You need to move 20 gallons a minute for the eko 60.With that much head the oo10 is not enough pump. a 0011 will work fine.

 

[HeatFarmer]

What size is the manifold? You need to move 20 gallons a minute for the eko 60.With that much head the oo10 is not enough pump. a 0011 will work fine.

The manifold is an 8 branch, but I'm only using 6. However, I'm trying to charge storage before the radiant loops down the line.

 

[Clarkbug]

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

You have an unpressurized storage tank that is heated via a heat exchanger, right? Im not sure how much more you can push into it above 180 realistically. Tom Im sure knows better, but I had read here on the forums that its expected that there will always be some difference in temps between the boiler loop and the storage, or the heat wouldnt be able to transfer.

What is the delta T across the inlet and outlet of the heat bank? If you can measure those temps, you can see if the BTUs are going in there, or if you are just at the limit of your storage. If your temp drop isnt very high, you are moving plenty of water. If you have a big delta T, you need to move more water.

 

[woodsmaster]

I didn't realize the storage isn't pressurized. 180 f is probably about as high as you will get it without a lot of idling.

 

[HeatFarmer]

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

You have an unpressurized storage tank that is heated via a heat exchanger, right? Im not sure how much more you can push into it above 180 realistically. Tom Im sure knows better, but I had read here on the forums that its expected that there will always be some difference in temps between the boiler loop and the storage, or the heat wouldnt be able to transfer.

What is the delta T across the inlet and outlet of the heat bank? If you can measure those temps, you can see if the BTUs are going in there, or if you are just at the limit of your storage. If your temp drop isnt very high, you are moving plenty of water. If you have a big delta T, you need to move more water.

Now that you mention it...I just remembered I cheaper out & only got a HX sized for 150,000 BTU..... but I would have thought, throwing everything the 60 has at it would at least cause the temp in storage to rise much faster than 10 degrees over 12 hours, whatever the maximum I am able to reach. Most of that time the boiler is idling and once I hit the highest point it seems the boiler has to be in idle to maintain it against DHW & the panel rads which draw off at 160º.

Granted this is WAY better than the propane forced air furnace the new system replaced.....I grew to hate the cold air blowing out of it for 10 minutes and then 15 minutes of warm air, then 20 minutes of cool air and off.....just to maintain a house temp of 58. At least now there is no fossil fuel drain off & we have a much warmer, more evenly temperate house....but the length of burn & the lack of maxing out storage is a bit of a let down.......


Just checked the system. Here are some real time temps:

RK-2001U reading: 190º
Boiler Gauge reading 182º
HX In: 179º
Hx Out: 177º
Upper Tank Temp: 181º
Radiator Manifold In: 164º
Radiator Manifold Out: 142º
Outdoor temp: 9º
House: 64º
Boiler room 24º


I've just reloaded the boiler for the night. I would expect the HX In temp to raise a bit.
Perhaps I'm moving water too fast? Not giving it enough time in the tank? Although, if I were to switch the 010 to speed 2, I theoretically would only be moving 3gpm through the system. But then there is pressure behind that, so maybe it would work.......

 

[huffdawg]

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

You have an unpressurized storage tank that is heated via a heat exchanger, right? Im not sure how much more you can push into it above 180 realistically. Tom Im sure knows better, but I had read here on the forums that its expected that there will always be some difference in temps between the boiler loop and the storage, or the heat wouldnt be able to transfer.

What is the delta T across the inlet and outlet of the heat bank? If you can measure those temps, you can see if the BTUs are going in there, or if you are just at the limit of your storage. If your temp drop isnt very high, you are moving plenty of water. If you have a big delta T, you need to move more water.

Now that you mention it...I just remembered I cheaper out & only got a HX sized for 150,000 BTU..... but I would have thought, throwing everything the 60 has at it would at least cause the temp in storage to rise much faster than 10 degrees over 12 hours, whatever the maximum I am able to reach. Most of that time the boiler is idling and once I hit the highest point it seems the boiler has to be in idle to maintain it against DHW & the panel rads which draw off at 160º.

Granted this is WAY better than the propane forced air furnace the new system replaced.....I grew to hate the cold air blowing out of it for 10 minutes and then 15 minutes of warm air, then 20 minutes of cool air and off.....just to maintain a house temp of 58. At least now there is no fossil fuel drain off & we have a much warmer, more evenly temperate house....but the length of burn & the lack of maxing out storage is a bit of a let down.......


Just checked the system. Here are some real time temps:

RK-2001U reading: 190º
Boiler Gauge reading 182º
HX In: 179º
Hx Out: 177º
Upper Tank Temp: 181º
Radiator Manifold In: 164º
Radiator Manifold Out: 142º
Outdoor temp: 9º
House: 64º
Boiler room 24º


I've just reloaded the boiler for the night. I would expect the HX In temp to raise a bit.
Perhaps I'm moving water too fast? Not giving it enough time in the tank? Although, if I were to switch the 010 to speed 2, I theoretically would only be moving 3gpm through the system. But then there is pressure behind that, so maybe it would work.......

I was talking to another member on this forum and he said he had to fool his controller somehow to be able to get the storage up to 190 or 195 . He mentioned it was something to do with the old style controller . is your controller a RK-2001UA
He said the newer controller allows you to get your storage to 195

Huff

 

[huffdawg]

This is what the RK-2001UA manual says. Its funny cause you can turn the knob till the display says 195 f

How the Controller Works
Boiler's temperature setting from 140 up
to 176F
The desired boiler temperature is set with a
knob (6). Current temperature is displayed on
the screen (2).
Boiler overheat indicator The LED (4) indicates when the boiler
temperature exceeds 194F. This causes the
fan to switch on.

Also the manual says knob(6) but its a push button (4) is a knob.

I wonder what the newer controller is worth

Huff

 

[taxidermist]

the manual was written when they were using the old controller. I would you have the new control in yours.


Rob

 

[mikefrommaine]

[quote author="Clarkbug" date="



Just checked the system. Here are some real time temps:

RK-2001U reading: 190º
Boiler Gauge reading 182º
HX In: 179º
Hx Out: 177º
Upper Tank Temp: 181º
Radiator Manifold In: 164º
Radiator Manifold Out: 142º
Outdoor temp: 9º
House: 64º
Boiler room 24º


I've just reloaded the boiler for the night. I would expect the HX In temp to raise a bit.
Perhaps I'm moving water too fast? Not giving it enough time in the tank? Although, if I were to switch the 010 to speed 2, I theoretically would only be moving 3gpm through the system. But then there is pressure behind that, so maybe it would work.......

I was talking to another member on this forum and he said he had to fool his controller somehow to be able to get the storage up to 190 or 195 . He mentioned it was something to do with the old style controller . is your controller a RK-2001UA
He said the newer controller allows you to get your storage to 195

Huff

My rk2000 controller always reads 5 to 10 degrees higher than my other gauges. The controller is going into idle at a lower temp than the 195 it actually reads. Which may be why you are seeing 180 storage temps.

The 24 degrees in the boiler room can't be helping though

 

[woodsmaster]

Mikefrommain On my biomass I fooled the sensor to match the outlet temp of the boiler. I loosened the clamp that holds the probe, slid it most of the way threw, clamped it back down and put a small piece of insulation around the probe except the very
small part that is clamped. Works great heating up. It is slightly delayed cooling down but not very much. Havn't
heard of any one complain of this with the EKO.

 

[in hot water]

So I'm thinking my Taco 0010--IFC 3-speed just isn't cutting it as the circulation pump on my boiler loop. My head is running around 12-13 feet, which is over the 10ft head range for the pump. It came with the boiler, so I figured I'd give it a shot. However, even at speed 3 I just don't think it is moving enough flow to heat storage.

I have insulated my supply/return pipes well, and will add more soon. I've got the air purged from the system, despite a few minor leaks. My boiler is idling at 195, with water in the supply pipe by the boiler AT or above 195 quite often, despite not ideally dry wood. But my storage never gets much above 180. The only thing I can think of is that the Taco pump is not getting the water to storage with enough GPM. I figure by the time it lifts the water to the 2nd floor and moves it the 100 ft to the primary loop, I'm only getting 8-9gpm on speed 3, which is eating 125Watts.

I have an Alpha on the other end which is doing this same lift in the primary loop, from the cellar, back up 12 feet to the boiler loop, running around 13gpm & moving water at 48watts. It's range is up to 19ft of head and 21gpm max.

My question is, can I get another Alpha and slip it into the Taco flanges I have already installed, or do I have to really break down the system and swap flanges as well??

How are you calculating the head? Head in a closed loop is the resistence to flow that the pipe and fittings present, nothing to do with the height of the building. If it is just circulating thru the boiler and coil in the storage tank, at 10- 15 gpm I doubt you have that much head? Unless the piping is sized way too small. The boiler itself is a wide open vessel, maybe a couple feet of head. If multiple copper coils are headered together that should not be much head.

The closer the A & B temperature in a HX the slower the heat trasnsfer. If the HX is undersized you may never get the two temperatures to match. Close approch heat exchangers can get within a few degrees on A & B side but they get much larger, more surface area, to accomplish that. There will alway be some energy loss, or inefficiency in a heat exchange.

hr

 

[HeatFarmer]

I was talking to another member on this forum and he said he had to fool his controller somehow to be able to get the storage up to 190 or 195 . He mentioned it was something to do with the old style controller . is your controller a RK-2001UA
He said the newer controller allows you to get your storage to 195

Huff

I believe I have the new controller....but...that is because the manual I received with the unit says it's for a RK-2001UA-d. My controller only says RK-2001

 

[bigburner]

Post some Pic's of the 24 degree boiler room, Lets start there also storage.

 

[HeatFarmer]

My rk2000 controller always reads 5 to 10 degrees higher than my other gauges. The controller is going into idle at a lower temp than the 195 it actually reads. Which may be why you are seeing 180 storage temps.

The 24 degrees in the boiler room can't be helping though

I thought the controller might be reading vastly different than my other gauges, but I have checked. After a good solid burn and just as the boiler goes into idle and comes out again, it is reading pretty close to the big gauge I have on the front of my supply pipe. I have also seen the gauge read over a hair over 200 while the RK-2001 temp showed 205.

Edit: after checking multiple times today, like a new mother with a sleeping infant, I realized the two numbers are normally way off.....so I tweaked the probe under the hood to reflect actual boiler water temp. Results are that after 4 minutes I have risen the tank temp by 5º with the hotter water....

 

[HeatFarmer]

How are you calculating the head? Head in a closed loop is the resistence to flow that the pipe and fittings present, nothing to do with the height of the building. If it is just circulating thru the boiler and coil in the storage tank, at 10- 15 gpm I doubt you have that much head? Unless the piping is sized way too small. The boiler itself is a wide open vessel, maybe a couple feet of head. If multiple copper coils are headered together that should not be much head.

The closer the A & B temperature in a HX the slower the heat trasnsfer. If the HX is undersized you may never get the two temperatures to match. Close approch heat exchangers can get within a few degrees on A & B side but they get much larger, more surface area, to accomplish that. There will alway be some energy loss, or inefficiency in a heat exchange.

hr

I was going by height, like in a normal pumping situation....duh.... My pipes for boiler loop are all 1-1/4" and about 200ft in total there & back. My primary loop is 1-1/4" and about a 60ft loop.

 

[HeatFarmer]

Here are some photos of my system taken along the way. Everything is in pretty tight quarters, so no great panorama shots...but you'll get the gist. I may make a video of the thing soon too.
Most of the shots are from before things were insulated/ buttoned up.

1: storage tank & coils before I filled the thing up
2:Upstairs portion of primary loop in back hall where the boiler supply loop tees in.
3:Flat panel rad manifold loop
4:Storage & storage feed loop
5:Boiler room before I built a new door--that was the old door from outside, put inside.....
6:Boiler room new door & 1st layer of r-10, before r-21 batts
7:Boiler area & wood storage
8: Overhead boiler loop piping showing both layers of insulation

 

[henfruit]

If you had gone 1.50 pipe you may be able to get by with the smaller pump? Also you should of had a larger heat exchanger in the tank.

 

[HeatFarmer]

If you had gone 1.50 pipe you may be able to get by with the smaller pump? Also you should of had a larger heat exchanger in the tank.

I hear ya....due to budget concerns I didn't spring for the 200,000btu HX. Probably a huge mistake to go with the 50,000btu/hr less one......