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Harman auto shut down on UPS

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by MikeinRI, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    Can anyone confirm or better yet explain how a Harman while plugged into a UPS knows its on battery power and will go into shutdown mode?

    Thanks

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  2. seige101

    seige101 Minister of Fire

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    You are talking about plugging your stove into a every day UPS?
  3. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    Ok I'll try to explain what I have been told/read. If you use the approved APC750 UPS the electronics in a Harman can tell when the power has failed and the stove is on battery power. Somehow it them goes into shut down mode. I maintain almost 100 computers at work and they all require a wired connection from the UPS to computer to shut down on a failure. I have a 65K Cat generator that power everything and the transfer happen inunder 10 seconds so we never see a shut down.
  4. gfreek

    gfreek Minister of Fire

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    Never heard of that
  5. boo boo

    boo boo Feeling the Heat

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    From my on line manual

    P43 Pellet Stove
    addendum
    Minimizing Smoke during loss of Power using battery back-up
    harmanTM strongly recommends installing battery back-up to minimize entry of smoke into the
    room in the event of power loss.
    Your pellet/biomass burning appliance relies on a combustion blower to remove exhaust. A power failure
    will cause the combustion blower to stop. This may lead to exhaust seeping into the room. Vertical rise in
    the venting may provide natural draft. It is, however, no guarantee against leakage.
    there are two harmanTM approved battery back-up options for your appliance:
    uninterruptible Power Supply (uPS) UPS battery back-ups are available online or at computer and
    office equipment stores. Your HarmanTM appliance with Rev E or later software available beginning in
    November 2010 may be plugged directly into a HarmanTM approved UPS:
    • The APC (American Power Conversion) model #BE750G and the TrippLite model
    INTERNET750U are tested and approved. Other brands or models may not be compatible.
    When power is lost, a fully charged UPS will power a safe, combustion blower only shut-down. Your
    appliance will pulse the blower every few seconds to clear exhaust until the fire is out. nOte: the uPS
    provides safe shut-down only. it is not intended for continued operation.
    Your appliance will recognize when power is restored. What happens depends on ESP temperature and
    whether it is equipped with automatic ignition:
    • in “automatic” setting, units equipped with automatic ignition will respond to the set point and
    ESP temperature and resume normal operation.
    • in “Manual” setting or for units without automatic ignition:
    • If the ESP is cool, the appliance will remain shut down.
    • If the fire is out and the ESP is still warm, the feeder may restart. Since the fire is out, the
    ESP temperature will not rise. The unit will then shut-down, and may flash a six-blink status
    error. (See ESP error codes)
    • If the fire is still burning, it will resume normal operation.
    Contact your dealer if you have questions about UPS compatibility with your appliance.
    harman Surefire 512h battery back-up The 512H connects to a 12 volt deep cycle battery that will run
    your appliance for up to eight (8) hours. It includes a trickle charge feature that keeps your battery
    charged when power is available. nOte: if the power is out for longer than battery life, smoke
    leakage may still occur unless your stove has been safely shut down.
    cautiOn! always keep appliance doors and hopper lid closed and latched during
    operation and during power failures to minimize risk of smoke or burn-back.
    cautiOn! use only harmantM approved battery back-up devices. Other products may not
    operate properly, can create unsafe conditions or damage your appliance.
  6. SmokeyTheBear

    SmokeyTheBear Minister of Fire

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    This might explain things

    "USB port with PowerAlert monitoring software and cabling enables a safe, unattended system shutdown. HID-compliant USB interface enables integration with built-in power management and auto-shutdown features of Windows and Mac OS X."

    Likely this can be what is used, you can talk to a Harman dealer and there is also nothing that prevents the signaling from taking place over the power line. This would reduce things to just a normal power cable.
  7. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    Boo Boo,

    Thats the same for my P61A. I'd like to know if anyone has one and how well it works?

    My stove has a build date of Jan 2012 so I hope to have a compatible version of the software.


    "Your HarmanTM appliance with Rev E or later software available beginning in
    November 2010 may be plugged directly into a HarmanTM approved UPS:
    • The APC (American Power Conversion) model #BE750G and the TrippLite model
    INTERNET750U are tested and approved. Other brands or models may not be compatible".


    "When power is lost, a fully charged UPS will power a safe, combustion blower only shut-down. Your
    appliance will pulse the blower every few seconds to clear exhaust until the fire is out. nOte: the uPS
    provides safe shut-down only. it is not intended for continued operation.
    Your appliance will recognize when power is restored. What happens depends on ESP temperature and
    whether it is equipped with automatic ignition:
    • in “automatic” setting, units equipped with automatic ignition will respond to the set point and
    ESP temperature and resume normal operation.
    • in “Manual” setting or for units without automatic ignition:
    • If the ESP is cool, the appliance will remain shut down.
    • If the fire is out and the ESP is still warm, the feeder may restart. Since the fire is out, the
    ESP temperature will not rise. The unit will then shut-down, and may flash a six-blink status
    error. (See ESP error codes)
    • If the fire is still burning, it will resume normal operation."
  8. gfreek

    gfreek Minister of Fire

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    Interesting. Thanks.. Anyone test this system??
  9. Justin M

    Justin M Feeling the Heat

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    I had not heard of this. I'm very interested and will definitely look in to one.
  10. Justin M

    Justin M Feeling the Heat

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  11. boo boo

    boo boo Feeling the Heat

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    Reading more into this it will only run the exhaust fan for a short period of time to eliminate smoke from the stove (very short battery life when used). It will not run the stove. If your generator kicks in after seconds there shouldn't be an issue with smoke. These can also be used as a surge protector as well
  12. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    [​IMG]Agreed. It's not meant to run the stove for a long period of time. It appears our Harmans draw about 100 watts in a normal running mode/ 450 watts while ignniting. @ 100 watts the approved 750 model UPS that are rated @ 450 watts have a run time arounf 40 minutes. Thats plenty of time for a shut down.
  13. kinsmanstoves

    kinsmanstoves Minister of Fire

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    this is in the new manual

    Attached Files:

  14. glenc0322

    glenc0322 Minister of Fire

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  15. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    I agree if your home its a perfect solution. I'm worried about no one at home and if the P61A will shut down as stated in the tech bulliten.
  16. glenc0322

    glenc0322 Minister of Fire

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    the manual says that it will shut itself off and only pulse the blower motor to push out the smoke. i have never tried to do it. If someone else has they will let us know. I would try it but I broke my leg and cant walk and the ups and plug for my stove is in my garage. when i am able to walk i will try it and post my results if noone is able to do it before me..
  17. gfreek

    gfreek Minister of Fire

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    Have you done a draw test to see actual watts used ..??
  18. Murph

    Murph Proud Grandparent

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    As long as you have an E series board the board can use the backup power for a shut down only by pulsing the combustion motor for the complete shut down only.
  19. lbcynya

    lbcynya Feeling the Heat

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    My guess is that the contol board sees the square wave from the NON-sine wave battery backup and initiates the "emergency shutdown" proceedure. For those that paid extra for a pure sine backup you might have a problem with the stove recognizing the backup...bummer.

    I have a 2009 model, but this is still exciting news since I picked up a spare control board off Ebay a while back ($110 shipped!!!) and it is the E version. So, for the cost of the board and the cheap power supply, I have a fool proof backup...nice!

    Thanks for post this or I probably never would have known.
  20. Tim Linden

    Tim Linden Member

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    That is probably how they are doing it. I know APC has some nifty backups that can detect if you say turn the TV off it can turn off the blu ray etc, so I was wondering how it was telling the stove to shutdown without a wire lol
  21. glenc0322

    glenc0322 Minister of Fire

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    I have an APC 750 that has a true sine wave not sure if it will initiate shut down. will try it on a warmer day lol and see what happens
  22. MikeinRI

    MikeinRI New Member

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    Is it built after November 2010? needs that E version firmware on the control board that was released 11/2012
  23. Justin M

    Justin M Feeling the Heat

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    I bought and tested the approved TrippLite model that is listed in the manual. It works as described in the manual, pulsing the combustion blower. It worked fine with a small fire. I didn't try it with a large fire.
    glenc0322 likes this.
  24. glenc0322

    glenc0322 Minister of Fire

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    I wonder how the stove knows its on ups? I emailed Harman and they gave me a tech to email and i am waiting for a response I don't have a ups that was tested by harman but I have a smart APC 750 but it has a true sine wave not sure if it will power off the stove will test it when the weather warms up and the leg heals
  25. tigers2007

    tigers2007 New Member

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    Any updates on this? What happens if you only lose power for under 2 seconds? My power quality is terrible and sometimes I lose power for a few seconds. BUT when I do lose power I lose it for several hours. So basically, are these stoves smart enough to know that power is back on and to continue the fire or does it just shut it down completely even if power is restored?

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