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Harman Delayed Orders

Post in 'The Pellet Mill - Pellet and Multifuel Stoves' started by MrJitters, Aug 17, 2008.

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  1. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    I ordered a P68 in May and given a Sept 28 ship date at the time. Now I am being told Jan-March delivery for the record. Earlier than that, off the record. Harman, in my opinion, has been derelict of duty throughout this ordering and has put many of us in a very tough situation. I am not sure if their people monitor these forums but they should. That way they could get a better understanding of the situation many of us are in. Personally, I have 8 ton of pellets at 235/Ton sitting in my basement with no stove. That is almost 2K I could be using for fuel money, add the 1K deposit for an invisible stove and you get the picture. Harman has mishandled a bad situation and made it worse.

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  2. DiggerJim

    DiggerJim Feeling the Heat

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    Better check to see if the price is going to go up as well when (if) they deliver it to you. Price increases for already sold & contracted stoves are being passed on - there have been a number of posts about that too. On the bright side, your basement of pellets is probably worth about 20% more than you paid for it :)
  3. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    In the dealer's letter he said he is NOT passing on the price increase. Boy wouldn't that have added insult to injury. :sick:

    As for the pellet value, yeah I was thinking that too. Turns out my pellets are my best financial investment of '08. :)
  4. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Western Mass.
    Unfortunately, corporations are not subject to the Military Code, and therefore 100% allowed to mislead, make mistakes and commit just about every other action under the sun. Maybe we should nationalize them, and then subject them to our commander in chief.......ah, forget that. We'd have bombers instead of pellet stoves coming out of the factory!
    :)

    Hopefully you have spent some time reading a lot of the other threads - Harman even posted their own PR in one, admitting they messed up.

    Currently, I think you will probably get your stove earlier than expected....just a feeling, since oil has come down a bit. Maybe the pressure is off.
    I think they know the situation now (as far as their dealers and customers), but they are pretty powerless to change it. The orders came in at 5x or more of their capacity. It appears that the biggest mistake they made was in communication (which they blamed on software, not people, but who knows?).....

    As I have said many times before, they have the full right to make as few or as many stoves as they want.....free enterprise! The problems was in the promises.
  5. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    Thanx for the input Admin. Military Code, eh? Well as upset as I am, I do believe a firing squad is a bit harsh. :)
  6. greggo730

    greggo730 Member

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    I have read the forums thru and thru I don't understand how Harman can add a price increase to the dealers when the dealers have given the set price to the customer in the form of a sales receipt.Is my sales receipt legally binding ?I'm not trying to tick off any dealers they already have enough problems,but when and if my P68 comes in I will be determined on the sales slip price.In my opinion Harman should eat it.Not the dealer who is stuck in the middle or the customer.

    Greg
  7. bostonbaked

    bostonbaked Member

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    Greg, I was one of the people who posted about being charged a price increase. Not by Harman. In my case (July 1st purchase) They did tell me that there was a price increase "coming in August" that's just the way it was presented to me. I then of course assumed it was a sales tactic to get me to purchase before that time. I said "so what your saying is if I buy now I'll aviod the price increase. right" ? He says" ACTUALLY NO we were told by Quadrafire" to apply the increase to any stoves that will arrive in August and beyond. My sales slip total was at the higher price. I complained to no avail and because I wanted the stove and had just begun to hear about shortages. ( they by the way said they were not aware of any shortages) I took the deal. I still don't think it's right but I did run it by my lawyer. He said they can set any terms they want and I can tell them what they can do with it (legal talk) and those are my only options. He says if your sales slip shows a balance due that is the balance due, period. So if they charged you the old price and your sales slip reflects this your all set. If they try to up the price the're breaking the law.
  8. pelletfan

    pelletfan Member

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    There seems to go a lot of misinformation around.

    If you (as the Customer) is buying a Stove at a certain agreed Purchase Price - stated in your Purchase Order the price is set in Stone.
    (except if you have a clause in your purchase contract saying otherwise - read the fine print )
    That's it !!!!!!!!!

    If the Dealer get's a price increase afterwards from his Supplier he has to deal with it, not you as the Customer. And I seriously don't believe that the Manufacturer is raising the price after the Order - never heard of it - I would say show me the Proof. I run a Business myself.

    If the Dealer accepts a Price increase after his Order, he is a not a professional in his business and does not know how to stand up to the Manufacturer.

    My 2cents
  9. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    What is "legal" or "right" or "ethical" in business transactions often comes down to one thing - is the offended party going to get (and pay) a lawyer and pursue the case until the bitter end. Other than that, most stuff is fair game. Sure, it can vary by where you are located - in NJ our county had a great consumer advocates office, and if you got in touch with them about something like this, they would make phone calls and write letters to the dealer and the manufacturer.

    But most places don't seem to have agencies like this......look at all our friends in Maine taken to the cleaners by that Boiler Guy (Adobe). The attorney general becomes their only hope, and remedy is doubtful.

    There is usually a threshold at which hiring a lawyer becomes an option, but it certain is not a small amount....some say 10K to 20K+ (in disputed charges or damages).

    If that is the case, the consumer usually has these choices:
    1. Cancel the order and get a return of their deposit
    2. Accept the higher price
    3. Discuss is nicely with the dealer and see if a compromise can be reached.

    Not saying it is right - and I NEVER did this to a customer in all my years in the stove business - but I think most folks just have to be practical. No use making a mountain out of a molehill.
  10. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    I've read a hundred or more negative comments about Harman, why do so many of you continue to order Harman products and than complaint about delivery times and/or cost increases?
  11. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    I ordered my Harman P-68 in May of 2008. The dealer told me at the time that his allotement was running low but still had some left. I ordered it and was given a September 28, 2008 delivery. At the time even the Northeast Regional Representative of Harman, who is a friend of a friend, urged me to order soon as the allotement was running low. That was all good enough for me. I believed what the regional rep and my dealer told me. I was given no reason to believe otherwise.

    So, to answer your question, I did NOT continue or attempt to order a Harman after the delivery schedules were changed and then complain about it. Please give us, that ordered a Harman prior to this fiasco, much more credit that that. :question:
  12. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Harmans are like ipods......pellet stove crack!

    Most customers ordered because they were told things were OK and the stoves were coming soon. Heck, even when the rumors started flying, I defended Harman, saying I thought they would come through.

    Then the letters went out from Harman to the dealers admitting mistakes and giving the longer lead times.

    I think most customers were simply shell shocked and caught "off base". They placed their faith in a good brand and a good dealer, and were let down....by circumstances.

    But whenever any of us get in a bad situation...we can throw our hand up and give up, or try to work through it somehow. It doesn't do much god to cry over back-ordered Harmans.......

    I do agree that the price increase thing was done wrong also.......remember, Harman is no longer Harman, it is part of a large billion dollar conglomerate. I have been told that this company (and, of course, most other big corps) is run by the bean counters. The marketers and customer service folks obviously have less input (in this case) than the accountants. Profit must be made, and given the increase in steel and other prices, they must raise prices to do so.
  13. greggo730

    greggo730 Member

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    Boston Baked : Thanks for the reply,but I didnt see your post.the one I was refering to was from Brother Bart(expect to pay more for your Harman 8/2/08) from a while back.This new thread just jogged my memory or set me off.I'm in a better position than most.I have an englander stove I purchased in Jan of this year and like it a lot.I ordered a P68 to upgrade and get more BTUs.The englander will go in the room over my garage.I was also able to scrounge up 4 ton of pellets this year so I'm looking good.

    Greg
  14. Hammer

    Hammer New Member

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    I ordered my Harmon insert in June because I was told the Harmon was the best around. They had other stoves in stock but they said the quality was not the same so I listened to them and dropped down a grand to hold it. The dealer said the first part of July would be the delivery date, well that came and went BUT in early August I was presented a brand new 2006 acentra. I am new to the pellet stove but have been burning wood since 1976. The install will be performed by my son and myself because the dealer wanted $600.00 and it doesn't look that complicated, at least I hope not.

    I appreciate the owners of this site for the great service it has provided for us all, thank you.
  15. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    I want to start by apologizing to anyone who may have been offended by my earlier reply. I can imagine your frustration and perhaps anger, after you ordered a Harman Stove and now are facing delays, and/or price increases. I give you credit for for doing research and selecting a top rated stove and ordering it well in advance of the heating season. I guess I was trying to target those who have ordered Harman's AFTER the news about the production problems arose. I'm still reading comments about people's frustration trying to find a reputable dealer to sell them a Harman this season. If it were me I would select another top rated stove, or be content to wait it out and hope Harman gets it act together, or goes bust in the future. I didn't mean to sound callous and once again apologize to anyone I may have offended.
  16. Lorilooo

    Lorilooo Member

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    Hammer - we ordered a Harman Accentra Insert in May '08, with a delivery/install date of 7/25/08. The dealer was very professional, honest and knowledgeable from the get-go. Everything was as promised and on time. Install was complete on the date promised. Overall, we were very pleased with the whole experience.

    Maybe we just got lucky??? :roll:

    We also have pre-paid for 4 tons of pellets to be delivered in mid/late-September from a different vendor. So far so good... ;-)
  17. Hammer

    Hammer New Member

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    Maybe we did get lucky Matchstick, maybe we did. I also have 4 tons sitting in a garage so I should be all set. GL to everyone!
  18. slls

    slls Minister of Fire

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    If you paid down on a stove, have receipt for full price. If they ask you to pay more, contact your states AG office consumer division. When selling in any state they have to abide by state law or get out.
  19. JustWood

    JustWood Minister of Fire

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    I'm not a lawyer but I think just a down payment is an open ended contract . A paid in full invoice on the other hand would be a slam dunk. Closed case. No dealing after the fact. Give me what I paid for or else. etc. etc. etc.
  20. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    Not a problem at all. :) Thanx for your kind words. This whole pellet burning thing has become quite a free for all up here in Vermont. Lots of people are and have been in panic mode since spring. There are literally few if any pellet stoves available and pellets here are going for around 350/ton and up. :sick: Personally, I am facing a $4000 heating bill this winter based on $4.50 Gal. for heating oil. I can afford it if I have to but it just makes me sick at the prospect of shelling out that kind of bucks to send up the chimney. Many Vermonters who can't afford this kind of costs have no idea how they are going to do it. It's sad.
  21. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    The same people, who cannot afford oil, might have a tough time coming up with 4K for a stove and pellets also. Many of these people have to buy oil in small quantities at market prices. Hopefully, the state(s) and the orgs (like Kennedys Citizens Energy) will get out there and try to help folks through the coming winter.

    I still say that 95% of people who pay $350 a ton are foolish....there is probably no savings at all based on such a high price. It seems like adding insult to injury to pay thousands for a stove and then save nothing or little. It's one thing to pay high prices for firewood for ambiance, but pellets are all about the BTU for the buck.
  22. DiggerJim

    DiggerJim Feeling the Heat

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    In my neck of the woods that means at least 100 gal or nearly $400 COD. That's a lot harder than wandering down to TSC or Home Depot/Lowes and forking over 20 or $30 for a half-dozen bags of pellets. Of course if the frenzy keeps up, it may be hard to find them by the bag, but for lots of folks that's doable where the $400 just isn't.
  23. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    I agree. I looked at 30 ton of pellets today all sold at 350/Ton. I could not believe it. As I said earlier, the people here are desperate. There is a panic mode and it is still August. I have never seen anything like it in my 59 years and that includes the Arab Oil Embargo following the Yom Kippur War in 1973. The highest I have seen is 385. A smart bet says it will break the 400 barrier by Labour Day.

    BTW, there is no such thing around here buying pellets by the bag. It's tough to find them at all, let alone have a retailer break open a pallet.
  24. itworks

    itworks New Member

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    I know it's a local market. If oil cost $4 gal, and one 40lb bag of pellets cost $7 ($350 per ton) and 1 bag of pellets equals about 2.35 gals of oil, then your comparative cost using pellets is about $3.00 per gal of oil representing $1.00 (25%) savings per gal of oil purchased. If you're like me and would use 517 gal of oil a season you would save over $500 using $350 a ton pellets.
  25. MrJitters

    MrJitters New Member

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    Well, oil right now is hovering around $4.50 / Gallon here in central Vermont. My $235/Ton gives me a comparative cost of $2.00/Gallon. That's a huge savings.
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